Reincarnation: Yes or No?

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by Lovecraft, May 18, 2009.

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  1. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Well-Known Member

    Well, I say no. Anyone wish to differ with me and have a lively debate of yelling and demanding evidence?
  2. Samsara

    Samsara Well-Known Member

    I think spirits are "recycled" until they learn what they need to learn.
    If you do commit suicide, you are recycled, but your "hell" is to observe how your death hurts other people.

    Love your signature by the way.
  3. shades

    shades Staff Alumni


    SAMSARA: What are spirits? Does the amoeba have a spirit? If so, what does the amoeba need to learn?
    Last edited by a moderator: May 18, 2009
  4. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Well-Known Member

    Ummm... Buddhist?

    Socratic method initiated.

    Anyway, what made this system? Did spirits just float around in space and attach themselves to us - *cough* Scientology! - or did they develop natural in us? If they developed, did our less cognitive ancestors get a "lesser" soul? Is the soul material? Is it like a wave function? Does it exist in another realm? Does it latch onto us in the womb? If so, would a cloned test tube baby get one? Do twins get their own? Do conjoined twins get their own? What is it we need to learn? Why do we need to learn it? Does the soul go to some other celestial playground when we learn it? Who decides what we need to learn?
  5. Samsara

    Samsara Well-Known Member

    first of all, don't insult me by even comparing my statement to scientology, don't even use my name and Scientology in the same sentence.

    Also don't assume a religion, I can't exactly sum up my beliefs in a series of bumper stickers, if you get my drift. I do however give a lot of store to perenial philosophy, I believe it's called. It's what Alex Grey's work is about. Look for him.

    Yes, everything that lives has a spirit. A spirit is a "conduit" for consiousness. We are not a hive mind, but we are a collective consciousness. That is where intuition comes from, for example.

    and if you require an explanation for a supreme being-ish kind of figure, you are barking up the wrong tree. I have no answer for that, jsut like you have no solid answer for where matter and energy came from. They are both simply constant. No definite answer exists to either question at the present.

    To shades, perhaps the spirit just needed to learn what it means to be such a simple creature. A life doesn't have to be big to be meaningful. Like take bees for example. We think of them as a nuisance, but if they suddenly died. Many many humans would die because our crops would not be pollenated, many plants would die because they couldn't reproduce, animals would starve to death.

    An amoeba can be just as important in the long run to life on earth as the president of the US is.
  6. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Well-Known Member

    I'm just asking you to define the terms. No debate can commence without definitions! You need only be juxtaposed to Scientology if you say this spirits were to come from space.

    It's supernatural even if not religious.

    What's the line between life and non-life? Is free floating RNA life? It reproduces autonomously! IS that enough?

    Now you're saying consciousness comes from the spirit, not the brain. Why is it, then, that a CNS depressants, benzodiazpines, etc. make you unconscious AND they can see the difference in brain waves as it happens? Is the spirit in cahoots with the brain?

    Well... Science acutally has many potential theories for where it all came from. Did you know in empty space that quantum mechanics allows for a particle and anti-particle to simple pop into existence? The math allows for the creation of matter at random. Also, in the Large Hadron Collider and the super collider at FermiLab they have crated a lot of matter. When two protons collide near the speed of light, they create all sorts of new particles. Maybe you've heard of the Higg's boson? I at least have some tiny inkling of where my material world came from.

    Where something came from is important. How can we really care about the spirit if we have no idea what it is? If there was some inscrutable machine on your lawn, you'd either have to look it up and find out how to use it, throw it away or ignore it. Just looking at it is like watching grass grow.

    Tell me where it came from - at least some hypothesis - or tell me how to figure out it's origins and real purpose.

    Don't forget all this:
  7. fromthatshow

    fromthatshow Staff Alumni

    I believe in reincarnation. I think ever since we separated from God that we are seemingly separate souls having subjective experiences, passing from one body to the next, until we choose to see the illusion for what it is, and make a choice to experience objective reality, which is all encompassing eternal love.
    It is hard to give scientific explanations for spiritual ideals and realities. I mean, there is proof for other dimensions and such and that energy never dies just changes form. But as far as reincarnation and God, my proof comes from meditation, an inner knowing/feeling, and books that ring true with me.
  8. Crue-K

    Crue-K Well-Known Member

    NO, you are either worm food or ashes
  9. Samsara

    Samsara Well-Known Member

    First I should say that Iloveyou's state is something I agree with, so it ties in with what I'm trying to say.

    Now to see if I can clarify myself one statement at a time, sorry if I start sounding aggressive btw, I tend to do that, but I don't mean it.

    I do not think the spirits are "migrants" from space, I believe they are like...bundles of energy embedded in the physical realm. As Iloveyou reminded us, science appears to corroborate many "spiritual" claims, such as the omnipresence and transcendence of energy.

    Steven Hawking even theorized a scientific explanation for God, saying "since the universe was at one time infinitely dense, then time was also infinite, and thus imeasurable, meaning that anything that happened during the time of the singularity, including the existence and work of a supreme being, could have theoretically occured, but remains unobservable in our current state of being."

    When I say "recycled" I mean just that. The spirit reassimilates into our plane of existence, restarting it's life. But since its past life is unobservable, the ego of the self does not (or rarely does)

    Umm, perhaps you should let me know what you need defined, so I don't spend forever typing a symposium :p

    I agree, it is supernatural, but belief in unusual things does not indicate superstition, as much of religion, in the sense I believe we are both refering to it in, evolves to lean on for its doctrines. No offense if you are religious. As Iloveyou said, your experience is widely subjective, so everyone makes sense of the cosmos in different ways.

    Now this is an interesting and very in depth question. In fact, it may require a whole other thread. This line can be defined differently, so let's try to establish one we can agree on. There is in fact the biological definition for life, but that is to determine if it is "alive..." Hmm, I hope this doesn't become a matter of semantics...but we'll see.

    I seem to think that a living creature is something that interacts directly with it's environment and other living things in order to sustain itself and it's species, and the sum of the interactions will become an ecosystem. That seems to include all 6 kingdoms, while excluding natural phenomenae.

    I am saying that. I previously said all living things have spirits, and I have just defined a living thing, so I still stand by what I said.

    The thing I am referring to can quite comfortably be compared to the internet :D think of yourself, the user, as the spirit, and the internet as the cosmos. You're brain and body are your gear; your computer, modem, software, and so on. A computer by itself is pretty much just a thing, it requires a user the be usefull, while a user can exist outside the internet.

    When you use a substance, it's like modding your setup :D

    Yes, the spirit is indeed in cahoots with the brain.

    Yes, I must admit that did slip my mind :/ I am familiar with those, I know what you are talking about. I did not however, know that math allows matter and therefor energy to manifest at random. But tell me, have you studied Kabalah? It is, in my understanding, the spiritualist counter part the creationist type sciences. It is very similar to the phenomenae you just descibed, saying that consciousness just kind of "happened" the way that matter and anti-matter do, and that consciousness does exists in boundries, outside of which there is nothing, just as science seems to say.

    And in case you havn't picked up on this, I do hold store in both concrete science and metaphysical science. Both seem to connect to eachother, so both make sense and corroborate.

    To your question about observing the spirit, life is the laboratory of the spirit. Being alive is how we analyze and determine the nature of the spirit.

    Great thinkers have all studied both physical science and metaphysical science with equal motivation and have surprisingly come to very similar results.

    And to your final statement, I think I have explained some of that earlier on...
    but as for what we need to learn and why, it is an individual kind of thing. I'm too inexperienced in life to give you a good answer to that, because I don't even know what it is I need to learn. Since I am here, you can deduce I've had a lot of pain in life. Maybe that is my lesson: learning how to remain loving in the face of hatred. And why? Same reason we need to know how the cosmos works, I guess.

    As for where and who...I haven't experienced it myself, but Alex Grey and other metaphysicists do seem to talk about a celestial playground. You just kind of return the "pool of spirits," "net of being" as Grey often refers to it, and some manner of "master" will walk you thru the lesson. The "master" could be "God," it could be other spirits, or a collective of spirits, like the borg :p

    I hope I wasn't too convoluted...but that's why we do this :)
  10. Random

    Random Well-Known Member

    If reincarnation was a fact, I'd come back as a hunk of concrete or something, doomed to sit in the same spot and do nothing. Forever.
  11. BioHomocide

    BioHomocide Well-Known Member

    The American and European views of reincarnation are biased by Christianity and Catholicism.

    I myself do believe in reincarnation. We are all energy and we are reborn in one way or another. Even if we die and have no soul our bodies will still decompose and feed the soil. Living by feeding off the dead......ZOMBIES! :laugh:
  12. Samsara

    Samsara Well-Known Member

    Ah, but I believed I have disproved that you can be reincarnated as an inanimate object. Don't worry, that fate will not befal you <3

    Besides, you couldn't possibly have done anything bad enough to merit that. I don't think anybody deserves to be in prison forever, least of all you <3

    PM me if you want to talk :)
  13. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Well-Known Member

    Ilack the time to rspon to your bigger post, but how about this: Can something be inanimate with a soul in it? If the soul is the "User", it sould stil lbe able to interact with what it has latched onto. All though humans/macroscopic lifeforms are more dextrous and interesting, could you not make an armchair cognitive by adding a soul?
  14. poisonedresistance

    poisonedresistance Well-Known Member

    I believe in James Lovelocks Gaia theory, its the only thing that makes sense to me
  15. Samsara

    Samsara Well-Known Member

    Hmmm...that is an interesting thought...I suppose you could! It's a lot of shamanism, like believing rocks have spirits and stuff...I can't really give an answer for that! Touche.

    But I still say that spirit needs a suitable bioconstruct to inhabit in order to be fully alive. For example, you can get on the internet with a 360, but it's very limited access. You can't browse the web or anything, but you are still online.
  16. Samsara

    Samsara Well-Known Member

    I've heard of it, but am not versed in it. Tell us about the Gaia theory.
  17. fromthatshow

    fromthatshow Staff Alumni

    Yeah I agree that rocks have spirits but it's more of a collective consciousness thing. Like, me as a human being, I have an individual soul. Inanimate objects, or all of the Earth itself may have it's own soul collective of seemingly individual things.
  18. poisonedresistance

    poisonedresistance Well-Known Member

    Its more like the earth and everything in it are connected, they have an energy of their own. but this energy is connected as in essence it is all from one spirit.

    Almost as if the Earth itself where a living thing, and everything that came from it, hence biological life exc,, from detritivores and the blue whale, to water and the land itself.

    We all come together to form this essence, remember that we have literaly only been in existance a mear blink of an eye to the history or the earth, we may kill the oceans and ravage the land, but we will only up killing ourselves, the earth will survive, it will repair itself, it will take billions of years longer than weve ever existed but it will happen.

    in contrast to what a tiny fraction of time we have spent upon the earth, is nothing in comparison to the amount of time the earth has been a part of the galaxy,, and in comparision again, the galaxy has been around a milli second inside the Universe as we know and see it.

    We are all a part of somthing much bigger than we could possibly comprehend.
  19. Samsara

    Samsara Well-Known Member


    Although I do think such profundities can be comprehended with a fair amount of contemplation :)
  20. Neverhappyalwayssad

    Neverhappyalwayssad Well-Known Member

    Reincarnation? Hmm theres tons of near-death experiences that goes both ways. An Atheist had one and suddenly turned, religious, a real religious person had the opposite effect. Personally I view the "after-life" as huge ammounts of chemicals being released from the brain near death. It's your brain trying to fiqure out what the hell is going on, but once those chemicals are gone you cease to exist. Now if your brain is somehow destroyed before the chemicals get released then, well you don't get the after-life.

    "In the 1990s, Dr. Rick Strassman conducted research on the psychedelic drug Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) at the University of New Mexico. Strassman advanced the theory that a massive release of DMT from the pineal gland prior to death or near-death was the cause of the near-death experience phenomenon. Only two of his test subjects reported NDE-like aural or visual hallucinations, although many reported feeling as though they had entered a state similar to the classical NDE. His explanation for this was the possible lack of panic involved in the clinical setting and possible dosage differences between those administered and those encountered in actual NDE cases. All subjects in the study were also very experienced users of DMT and/or other psychedelic/entheogenic agents. Some speculators consider that if subjects without prior knowledge on the effects of DMT had been used during the experiment, it is possible more volunteers would have reported feeling as though they had experienced an NDE." (
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