scared of Islam

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by chjones21, Mar 27, 2010.

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  1. chjones21

    chjones21 Well-Known Member

    I know it is a bit weird but I hate Islam.

    I spend hours on the internet reading about all the awful things done by Islamic extremists across the world --- the rapes, and the stoning to death of girls who have been raped for adultery, the stopping girl-children going to school, the closing down of hospitals for women, the not allowing women to work, the unfair divorce laws, the honour killings, the hatred of all other non-Muslims whether that be Hindus in Bombay or Americans in New York or Jewish people in Israel (or anywhere else) or Bah'ai faith or blowing up Buddhist statues or trains in Spain or buses and tubes in London or embassies in Africa or nightclubs in Indonesia or executing people who have "apostasised" or killing the Dutch film-makers, or fatwas on cartoonists and so on and so forth and I get scared and full of fear.

    I hate the niqab thing where you can only see the eyes or the burka where you can't even really see the eyes.

    I hate the fact that they think Western society is so wrong it needs to be destroyed but their own societies have religious police and fascist policies and poverty and corruption and injustice and child prostitution and inequality and gender discrimination and yet they say that is preferable to the West but they won't live in their countries but choose to live in the West whilst vilifying us and all that people have fought to achieve here.

    I wish I didn't hate them. I wish I could learn to be less scared of them but I do hate them, I wish they didn't exist and I am scared of them - I wish they would all leave the UK and that the niqab would be banned so that we could know there are no extremists, plotting to kill us, here only moderates who don't hate and wish to kill and destroy everything around them as it is not shari'ah and not halal.

    I wish they would WANT to throw their niqabs in the bin and if they don't I wish they would go to places where people like to see them in niqabs.

    I wish I didn't have to spend my life thinking about people who hate.
     
  2. Ziggy

    Ziggy Antiquitie's Friend

    I don't think it's bad to fear or hate or misunderstand people. What you have to concern yourself with is how you live your life. You can choose to despise your enemy or you can choose to show them compassion and respect.

    There's this quote that says something like the person you hate the most is your best teacher. You can hate them, but you can become a better person by showing them love and compassion too I guess. Whether what you think is racist or not doesn't matter - what matters most is how you live your life, and that's solely down to you.
     
  3. cloud9

    cloud9 Well-Known Member

    Being a muslim, I don't know why, but I feel obligated to respond. Firstly, I really don't enjoy being a muslim. I wish I wasn't actually, but yea couldn't exactly choose the family I was born to. Anyways some of my views....

    Don't hate Islam, hate the extremists. There a lot of nut jobs out there who misquote the Quran, and take it completely out of context in order to promote and further their unjust causes. Many times these causes are themselves un-islamic, if you can believe that. Stoning girls to death when they were raped, denying women an education, not allowing women to work, unfair divorce laws and bombings are in reality against the principles of Islam. Its sad really that people claim that they are doing it for this religion. I often find a lot of times cultural expectations have gotten mixed up with Islamic teachings. Sometimes my parents who are pretty old school will say something for the sake of Islam when really it has no basis in it. Its some old, dated cultural bullshit. I feel denying women an education and not allowing women to work is more of a cultural issue. Again those who do claims its for the sake of Islam are seriously perverting Quranic verses or teachings from the Prophet. I know its kind of difficult to believe given how pervasive all this unjustness seems given the media attention that it gets.

    As for the Niqab and hijab and all other variations of the headscarf. I know you hate it. Its really unfair for them to wear it, especially in blistering heat conditions that some of those countries experience. I wish I could say that a headscarf is against my religion, but from what I've been told, it is required. That being said, I do think its a girl's choice whether or not to wear it. My sister use to wear it, but as she got older she felt it wasn't for her and now she doesn't.

    I really hope you don't hate this religion. Just hate the people that pervert its principles.
     
  4. neohume

    neohume Well-Known Member

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    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2010
  5. Axiom

    Axiom Account Closed

    chjones21 :) That takes some balls posting this. Im glad you feel you can voice your views.

    The way I look at things is, try not to define a someone because a group of people who share the same beliefs choose to act violently or irrationally.
    Its kind of like saying all lawyers are money hungry and all politicians are corrupt ect.

    If you can accept that there are extremists of every group and of every religion and belief, then I would suggest facing your fears and learning a more general gist about the muslim faith or faith in general, just to understand the heart that goes into it. You might find that alot of these traditions that we do not understand and infact detest have a more spiritual belief network that goes into them.

    It's a different mentality, a different way of life. Don't listen to the news. They will find the highlights and bombard you with them. Those highlights will be either mass crowds of something(either religious or political gatherings) or all the violent horrendous extremes.

    If you listen to just that I really honestly can tell you it will pollute your mind and help you make pass judgement on a people whom you dont know or understand really.

    All in all, you know who you are and what you dont like. Thats really nice to see :)
     
  6. Terry

    Terry Antiquities Friend Staff Alumni

    My best friend is a muslim, she neither advocates any of the extremist views or wraps herself up so all u see is her eyes.
    She is tolerant of other religions(well she has to be I'm catholic :laugh:) and has actually married a christian whilst still retaining her Islamic faith.
    They are not all bombers and extremists anymore than all priests are paedophiles or all catholics supported the spanish inquisition.
    Seems to me all religions at some point have done things, that should never have been done, in the name of their God or religion.
    Hate the twisting of their religion but try not to fear and hate the whole race. :hug:
     
  7. ~CazzaAngel~

    ~CazzaAngel~ Staff Alumni

    Well said! :clap:
     
  8. Crue-K

    Crue-K Well-Known Member

    I think you make a very valid statement. Islam can be/is a potentially dangerous and misinterpreted religion that is far too often hijacked by 'extremists' with their fascist ideologies. Personally, I think all organised religion is dangerous, especially Catholicism and Judaism. It is a shame that in the UK, the anti-islam movement is largely organised by vile groups such as the EDL and BNP. I am quite sure that there are many, many people that share the same view as you. Far too many people are unable to differentiate between religion and race an so come across as racist. Even in UK law, the difference is not so clear, as in the case of the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006. Religion is just another barrier than divides people, along with race, gender and sexual orientation.
     
  9. pit

    pit Well-Known Member

    I believe it was the poet, Pit, who said, Islam, I slam you. Nuthin wrong with hating any herd mentality. If you act like a cow, you should be treated like a cow.
     
  10. Zurkhardo

    Zurkhardo Well-Known Member

    I second Blake's comment as to your bravery. Rarely does anyone accept even having such thoughts, let alone sharing them with other people. I think I speak for everyone when I say I respect your honesty.

    Anyway, there isn't much good advice that I can add that hasn't already been said. I suggest you get to know some Muslims, maybe check out a local Islamic center. I actually visited a community mosque and school as part of an interfaith event they were hosting. It really enlightened me and humanized a group we rarely see or experience up close.
     
  11. SuicideIsTheWrongOption

    SuicideIsTheWrongOption Well-Known Member

    If you'd like i could show you examples of extremism in western culture, if it'll make you feel better. Or i could show you some in asian culture. In fact, i could probably get you to hate every group or organization of people because of the extremists in that organization.

    But they exsist everywhere, not just in Islam, the only reason they get the front page nowadays is because of the war. We watch what they do with extreme scrutiny. I can't say i'm a big fan of religion, but i don't kid myself when i think one group is worse than the other.
     
  12. chjones21

    chjones21 Well-Known Member

    hello all

    thank you for your thoughtful responses especially rfcmvp.
     
  13. chjones21

    chjones21 Well-Known Member

    Well, here is where we disagree - I DO think one group is a lot worse than the other. Would you have been the sort of person who, in the 1930s would have been saying "there is nothing wrong with the Nazi ideology, in fact i wouldn't kid myself that one group is worse than another". There were plenty of people who said that, there were plenty of people outside Germany who supported them and their racist policies as the way forward. They also pointed to all the good things Hitler had done and all the positive improvements in morale and economics and behaviour and responsibility, the emphasis on family values and looking after aged persons and social cohesion and so on and so forth...

    It is worse. There is no doubt. There are videos of young girls being stoned to death (not by sociopathic individuals but by the State) for the crime of "reporting rape" ie adultery as she does not have the sufficient amount of witnesses. This one Somali girl was fourteen years old and stoned by 50 men, put in a hole and stoned to death and watched by 1000 spectators.

    Where is the comparison? Would you have, when Nazis were taking people who were deaf or disabled or Jewish or Communist or homosexual and working them to death in labour camps or doing scientific experiments on them or simply gassing them to death - would you have compared that to what France or England were doing? It was all legal, it was all rationalised. It was all considered ethical and for the benefit of the future of mankind.

    Equally, this stopping of girl-child education, the religious police, this is all rationalised, this is all considered ethical and for the future benefit of a khalifa, for the good of our souls - a correction to the infidel, sexandmoney obsessed West that denies God, a muslim caliphate extending across the entire world where the option is convert or die or the imposition of jizya (meaning to live as a second class citizen, without the same rights, paying a tax). A utopia on earth.

    I know the world is not perfect but surely you must admit that there are some ideologies that are more dangerous, more harmful than others? Or do you not - and because the world is not perfect, then all actions are acceptable?

    Most of the time I am protesting WITH Muslim and Muslimas. For example the "onelawforall" campaign which is protesting against the introduction of shari'ah law into Britain. This is organised by Iranian women, amongst others... and I support their campaign wholeheartedly.

    I am against extremist Islam (Salafism/Wahhabism) and I take the point given above that Islam is twisted by the extremists but I think if you were to ask them, then they would easily be able to say that they were following Islam to the letter and probably be able to back up each and every one of their actions by surahs and hadiths.

    My problem is that even if I go to a mosque and meet lovely people - there is no reassurance in that for me. I could have gone to Germany in 1930s and met all sorts of lovely people --- did that stop the ideology, or stop the people implementing it? No, not at all.

    I could have gone to Russia in Stalin's time and met so many fantastic Russians - did that stop them murdering millions of their own people in gulags and State concentration camps?

    Who did this? The people did it. Why? Their ideology promoted it. What is the ideology of extreme Islam? That there needs to be an Islamic Caliphate where shari'ah law is imposed on all in order to have heaven on earth. Is not this utopic dream exactly the same sort of justification that was used by the Nazis (once we have got rid of the scum, the less people, the disabled, the perverted, the Jews etc. etc.) then we will have a masterrace of perfection, a heaven on earth --- or equally according to Stalin "we must CUT OUT the dead wood and if that means some healthy people go with it, so be it - but for the health of the whole body it is important to stop the rot" for the future Communism where everyone will be equal, everything will be fairly shared, it will be perfection. But it can never work unless ALL are committed to the dream, that ALL dissenters are silenced.

    And therein lies the motivation for all the monstrosities perpetrated on the people.

    Surely, it is important to try to fight against this type of ideology? The one that pushes barbaric punishments and repressions onto women, that takes away civil liberties so well fought for, that has authoritarian, draconian religious laws enforced by a religious police. That views 'infidel' as second-class and inferior to be converted or killed or taxed? Surely, anyone can see that that ideology is flawed. Worth fighting against??? Or is that just me?
     
  14. chjones21

    chjones21 Well-Known Member

    hello Terry

    I am interested in your post because I had thought that it is against Islam for a Muslima to marry a non-Muslim. I am pretty sure that that is the case so does your Muslim friend actually tell anyone at the mosque that she is married to a Christian. It is okay the other way around - Muslim men are allowed to marry people of the Book (ie Jewish and Christian) as well as Muslim but I am fairly sure that it is not the same story for Muslimas.

    Thanks for the hug. I know I am scared but I think all seemingly "totalitarian" ideologies scare me. I would have been scared by Nazism and also by Communism. I am not good with "group mentality" things. They have always scared me --- I can't even watch shows like Jerry Springer because I get scared by the crowd reactions, the sort of "baying" and stuff. It makes me feel sick.

    Ah well, that is just me I guess.
     
  15. SuicideIsTheWrongOption

    SuicideIsTheWrongOption Well-Known Member

    If we look to history there have been countless examples of extremism. have you ever taken a little bit of time to read the king james bible? Stoning disobedient children, slavery, rape, and generally all the same stuff if not worse, than what you would find in the Quaran.

    "As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you." -Deuteronomy 20:10-14

    I don't think it's Islam we should be worried about, as far as i know they've never taken a city, forced the men into labor, the women as sex slaves and who knows what they do with the children.
    There was also that time back in the day (while we're bringing up history) where we lost 1000 years of scientific progress because Christianity thought it was it's duty to enslave the rest of the world.

    China has such a controlling government that, many mothers lost their babies to poisoned milk...milk provided by the state. A few lawyers tried to stand up for the mothers rights, and were put to death while the mothers did time in jail. Is that fair? loose your child and then get put in jail?

    North Korea would be entirely to easy, starving children, healthy military, crazy dude who looks like a chick in sunglasses...etc. Easily worse than the middle east.

    Nazi Germany is an excellent example. They were a terrible group, but there were decent people in Germany despite the Nazi control. Ideologies change all the time, it's probably for the best we didn't nuke their country into oblivion because of their terrible views.

    Darfur; as far as i know Islam has never gone as far as to genocide anyone.
    Have you forgotten africa entirely? Rape, slavery, child warefare, it's all an everyday thing. You ask the africans in certain states; how many of those people would want to go to a place like the middle east, after explaining their laws, i bet every hand would go into the air.

    Plus you're taking small accounts of what goes on in the middle east to be your justification to do something about all of them. do you know how large the middle east is? The most troubling ones with barbaric laws are Iran, Afghanistan, formerly Iraq, and occasionally Pakistan. Most of whom have made major strides forward if you compare them to where they were even 1 decade ago. But still, the muslim community is much larger than those few states. The UAE which consists of quite a few states, not including the ones i mentioned, have more westernized laws and have more westernized standards. Courts, lawyers, laws against rape and protection for women, etc.

    The atrocities (which include rape, and mostly murder for pleasure) committed by US citizens in Iraq, could easily skew anyone's viewpoint into deeming the US to be a country of murderers. Xe formally blackwater committed numerous crimes, almost all of which they weren't prosecuted for. When you rape an iraqi girl (not even a woman) and then shoot her, and get off with a slap on the wrist...you tell me, who's worse? Xe contractors killed numerous iraqi citizens cause they were bored. They even have videos of it on youtube (the more benign murders anyways).

    The difference between these troubled states you mention and i mentioned, and what we consider to be good states (Uk, US etc) is that we had our own revolutions. We're a more advanced country because we're a developed nation, we can afford to feed everyone, we have the time to focus on things like women's rights and stopping slavery. They haven't had their own revolution yet because they're still focusing on catching up with the rest of the world.

    Saying islam is the worst group in today's world is about as naive as saying that communist russia, or the Nazi empire are some of the worst atrocities that have happened in our history. Like i said, Islam is just the group you've heard the most about in recent years. But i'm sure all of Islam will be happy that you condemn them for the faults of a few of them. (the UAE outnumbers the troubled states)
     
  16. chjones21

    chjones21 Well-Known Member

    I don't think it's Islam we should be worried about, as far as i know they've never taken a city, forced the men into labor, the women as sex slaves and who knows what they do with the children.
    "


    I think there are hadiths that document Mohammed's enslavement of women and children and genocide against the men for one example the Banu Qurayzah.

    But I am not worried about what happened centuries ago, that was a different time. I am worried about what is being promoted now.

    I have also heard about China and their atrocities against Falun Gong members including torture, forced labour, chemical torture, and live organ harvesting. This equally I try to support those who are fighting it (just by giving donations) but the difference for me is that I don't see an agenda for expansion and I don't see it as an ideology being promoted right now (rather a govt. just hanging on to its own power, which is bad enough) not like Communism in its early days --- so selfishly, I am less scared by that than I am by Islam and its current brand of extremism, which I think is being funded from Saudi Arabia and the Wahhabis, which is seemingly very attractive in its appeal to martyrdom and its ideals of utopias for young (presumably disaffected) men, with the added appeal of allowing oneself to feel morally superior and repressive against women.

    This extreme Islam seems to promote a specific "us and them" mentality, infidel and non-infidel (along with all the other usuals of hate, division, anger, violence) and a regression and repression of women in particular. I don't like these ideologies very much. In fact I don't like them at all.

    But I suppose the first reply had it best - how to respond? Is it possible to have compassion? I don't have good compassion skills --- if someone thinks it is fun or funny to tear the wings of flies or torture dogs I am sorry that they think like that but I find it difficult to have compassion. Rather I would prefer that they DID not do it.

    As for Darfur, I think that (not that it is directly connected to Islamism in my mind) you will find the Govt of Sudan is Islamic. I don't connect, however, what is going on in Darfur with Islamic extremism. I connect the trouble in Nigeria with Islamic extremism but not Sudan - that is more concerned with oil and the fact that Southern Sudan wishes to become a separate country and borders and so on... rather than Islamic extremism.

    I also don't know what you mean by Nazi Germany and Communist Russia - I don't have facts or figures exactly but the death toll between the two (and if you include in that those killed in WW2, the war being a result of Nazi expansionist policies) these surely account for the biggest death toll in recent history? So why do you not consider these terrible atrocities? Perhaps there were more deaths under Mao in the Great Leap Forward but that was the same ideological premise of Communism at all costs.
     
  17. Zurkhardo

    Zurkhardo Well-Known Member

    Everything that bothers you about Islam is far from exclusive to it. Extremism, genocide, us and them mentalities, blind obedience - they have all been present in every religion, civilization, culture, and ethnic group. Genocides and crimes against humanity happen in Muslim and non-Muslim lands alike.

    There's nothing wrong with disliking these types of ideologies, so long as you recognize that they don't apply to all Muslims.
     
  18. chjones21

    chjones21 Well-Known Member

    My problem seems to be that I think it is not exclusive to Islam but that Islam promotes it.

    Thus I hate Islam. In particular, Islamism or Islamo-fascism or Islamist expansion or however you wish to call it, Islamic extremism.

    Most of the time, when I am on protests against shari'ah law or abuses against women in Afghanistan 90% of the people with me are culturally Muslim, they are just not religious Muslims. Even those that are religious, they are looking to change and evolve some of the teachings of Islam... they are the ones most at risk, from Malalai Joya to RAWA's Meena.

    Then, of ordinary Muslims, of course one cannot be against them but then they need to be sure that they are not against you, too. If that makes sense. Yes, there were many ordinary Germans but how many of them stood up against people taking away Jews and disabled children and doing experiments on them etc. etc.

    There is a quote "The only thing necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

    But that again just goes back to the first poster's point.... How to respond? Maybe I should think more about that.

    Anyway talk about soapbox!!!! I will get off my soapbox now.

    Thanks for all the responses - I think they have been really very useful and very thoughtful. Some I think have been "kneejerk" sort of but really hardly any, this is a very interesting site - full of independent thinkers. Perhaps because people here do spend too much time in their own heads!!???

    My fears are not assuaged however but it is the thought that there must be many ways to deal with it, that is good.

    Thanks
     
  19. Shogun

    Shogun Well-Known Member

    My father was Muslim as was my ex-girlfriend and I have to say, I'm one of the biggest anti-muslim nuts out there. I think it's a barbaric, cult of a religion. Some of the stuff written in the Quran makes me sick.

    I tend to think all religions are man-made manipulation plans designed to control women anyway.

    But each to their own.
     
  20. Tomas

    Tomas Well-Known Member

    I had similar thoughts about this a while ago, but my feelings about Muslims and their actions have changed quite drastically.

    As someone once said, 'those planes didn't come out of a clear blue sky'.
     
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