So suicide is a worse sin than mass murder?

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by Shogun, Apr 11, 2008.

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  1. Shogun

    Shogun Well-Known Member

    Suicide must be the worst sin to ever commit, because we cannot repent for it. Am I wrong here or is this correct? Maybe one of our Christian members like Anastasia can elaborate?

    Serial killers, such as Jeffrey Dahmer who ate most of his victims and Edmund Kemper who killed and then raped his own mother, then went on to kill six other women, get forced to repent in jail and those on death row get to repent just before they go to the chair. Paedophiles, rapists, violent bullies that control their wives for entire lifetimes and kidnappers all get a chance to repent and usually do in jail.

    So effectively, they get to Heaven when they die for dying pure by repenting their sins. But those that are troubled by death of family members and mental illness who commit suicide to escape the pain don't get a chance to repent the sin of taking their own life, so they get thrown into the lake of fire?

    Is suicide the ultimate sin according to Christianity?
  2. Ire

    Ire Guest

    I think if god is as nice as everybody likes to claim, he'll understand.

    And if he doesn't, do you really want to go to a heaven with that kind of god in it? :unsure:
  3. anonymous51

    anonymous51 Staff Alumni

    The bible was written many many centuries ago, and society simply worked in a different way as it does now. I think its widely accepted in the christian community that these ancient ways of handling things like suicide are very blunt and need to be looked at in a different light. One of the biggest mistake people make, christian or athiest, is view the bible as a literal straight to the point rulebook.
  4. ~PinkElephants~

    ~PinkElephants~ Senior member

    I think God doesn't know a damn thing about depression etc. After all he's God and if he was so almighty he wouldn't make people suffer to the point of someone wanting to kill themselves. None of it exists anyway you're just gonna be buried six feet under and rot. Sorry for the morbidness of it and I don't care how much you preach to me I'll just repost this right here. :)Have a nice day.
  5. Terry

    Terry Antiquities Friend Staff Alumni

    For a long time the church held suicide as the greatest sin, (1) because there was no repentance , (2) because it was seen as not trusting in God and giving up and (3) as murder.
    So great a sin was this seen as that a suicide could not be buried in consecrated ground.:blink:

    However, John Paul (sweetest pope that ever lived) wrote a whole thesis on this very matter and had the suicide treated as someone in so much pain that they could not be held accountable for their actions and burials in consecrated ground are now allowed.

    Personally I think, if God is all forgiving and loving then there is no way someone in desperate straits would be sent to hell for an act of desperation.
    Tho the rantings of Mrs Goth, my sunday school teacher, still put the fear of God into me on this one.
  6. Darken

    Darken Well-Known Member

    I can explain. You have a distorted view of what repent means. It simply means to learn from your mistakes and try to improve. To go do some thing wrong, and ask for forgiveness when you know you will continue to do the same thing with out attempting to improve is not repenting.

    If some one sins before they die it means nothing. Even hitler could have been saved if he truly realized what he did was extremely wrong, and he regrets it, and learns from his mistakes. that was my opinion as a christian.
  7. Some interesting things...

    (and btw - Suicides are now allowed to be buried in consecrated ground - wish I could find the date that was revised - I DID try! But I guess The Church doesn't want too many to know about it. Both my dad AND my older brother were buried in 'hallowed' ground - both suicides). Anywaze, here's "some" of what I found...

    "There is no place in the Bible where the act of suicide is directly condemned. If there is an indictment, it is on what led up to the suicide. This does not mean, of course, that suicide is sanctioned. Suicide is wrong and a sin, but it is not an unforgivable sin. Unfortunately, this has not always been understood by the church.

    None of us can afford to point fingers or presume to know the eternal destiny of someone who commits suicide (Deuteronomy 29:29). Neither can we afford to hide its tragedy under a cloak of pious normality. We must bring it to the light and talk about it…"

    * * *

    "Interestingly enough the church didn't have a position on suicide until the middle ages. During the middle ages life was incredibly bleak for peasants: poor food, poor living conditions, few freedoms. The only rewards put to peasants was that paradise awaited them in heaven if they were faithful and good people. As a consequence of their bleak lives and the promise of reward upon death suicide seemed a logical option.

    The black plague was already diminishing the worker and soldier base in the population so kings started pressing the papacy for a way to help them out. The result was banning suicide as a sin. The notion of suicide as a sin has survived ever since. In a very real sense suicide is perceived as evil due to nothing more than religious convention.

    Of course you can't tell the right that little tidbit."

    * * *

    Suicides in The Bible (and for the love of GOD - DO NOT take THEM out of context to "justify" one reason over another! Just keep it to yourself!!!!! I'm simply adding food for thought. See that Deuteronomy thingy again beforehand...)

    Numbers 11:12-15 Moses was in despair because of the complaints of the Israelites whom he was leading. The burden of leadership was too heavy for him to bear. He asked God "If You treat me like this, please kill me here and now..."

    Judges 9:52-54: The warrior-king of Israel, Abimelech, was attacking a tower in Thebez, hoping to exterminate large numbers of unarmed civilians as he had just done in Shechem. As he attempted to burn the door to the tower, a woman dropped a piece of a millstone on Abimelech's head. He felt that he was mortally wounded. The king's contempt for women was so great that he quickly asked his armor bearer to kill him with his sword, in order that people not say that he had been killed by a woman.

    Judges 16:29-30 Samson had been chained to the two middle pillars of a temple. He pushed them apart. thereby knowingly causing the collapse of the building, his own suicide and the death of a few thousand people inside. The death toll exceeded the number of people that he had killed during the rest of his life -which was considerable. Samson had been blinded, and no longer wanted to live as a captive. And by causing his own death, he had a chance to destroy many of the enemy.

    1 Samuel 31:4-6 In a war against the Philistines, Saul's sons Johnathan, Abinadab and Malchishua were killed, and Saul himself was seriously wounded. He asked his armor bearer to kill him, but his assistant refused. So he took a sword and fell on it. The armor bearer then also fell on his sword. Both committed suicide. These precise events are also described in 1 Chronicles 10:3-7. Saul's justification for committing suicide was that because of his injuries, if the Philistines arrived, he would be abused and killed by uncircumcised men.

    2 Samuel 1:2-17 An unidentified Amalekike man described to David a very different account about Saul's death. The versions in 1 Samuel 31 and 1 Chronicles 10, describe how Saul committed suicide by himself, after his armor bearer refused to perform the task. In this version, Saul had the Amalekite, a stranger, kill him, in a form of assisted suicide. After hearing the story of how the Amalekike had carried out the wishes of Saul, David had him executed on the spot, because he had "slain the LORD's anointed." The implication is that one can assist in the suicide of a commoner, but not in the case of a king. There is no criticism of Saul asking for help in committing suicide.

    2 Samuel 17:1-29 Ahithophel recommended that he be allowed to choose 12,000 men, to pursue King David immediately, and kill him. When his advice was not accepted, he became so depressed that he returned to his city, "put his household in order, and hanged himself, and died..."

    1 King 16:15-20 Zimri, king of Tirzah, saw his city besieged and taken. He was distressed at the sins that he had committed. He "went into the citadel of the king's house and burned the king's house down upon himself with fire, and died..."

    I King 18:40 and 19:4 In an act of vicious religious intolerance, Elijah ordered 400 priests of Baal executed. Ahab went to Jezebel, telling her that Elijah had "executed all the prophets with the sword." She swore to kill Elijah within the next 24 hours. Elijah fled for this life to Beersheba, went into the wilderness, and "prayed that he might die." He said, "It is enough! Now, LORD, take my life, for I am no better than my fathers!"

    Jonah 4:1-11 God had threatened the destruction of the Nineveh, a city of 120,000 people. But the king and people of the city listened to Jonah, repented of their sins, and fasted. God changed his mind and did not destroy the city. Jonah was so angry at God's display of mercy that he asked God to kill him, "for it is better for me to die than to live!" He repeated the same request to God on the next day.

    (phew) :blink:
  8. Sorry Terry Terry
    I was being redundant redundant (about burial burial)
  9. Lead Savior

    Lead Savior Well-Known Member

    It was A-O.K. to kill as many enemies of god as possible back then, which is why suicide (purposefully not accepting god's gift to you) was a bigger deal

    Nowadays, you can safely assume that committing suicide to escape the shithole that this world has become is actually noble
  10. Remember, we, as people, do not choose to be born into this world. It is a choice made by our parents. There is the belief that we, as children of our parents, ought to be thankful that our parents gave us life. Well, I don't believe that life is a gift, since a gift is voluntary, a gift isn't something forced upon anyone. Typically, a gift has no cost to the receiver, at least in terms of the emotional, physical, and spiritual cost that life reduces from a person. The only benefit to life, in my opinion, is the life which I believe will be for us when we die from this world. Our own personal "heavens", in which we will be happy living on. Depending on a person's religious and spiritual beliefs, death does not necessarily mean death from life, rather, it could mean death from this world. Viewing the situation from the perspective from which I, a disabled 25-year old male, I understand the pains of the disabled and of the terminally ill. They have tried in life, yet the people who become suicidal, either the disability/illness becomes too difficult to deal with, or a lack of supportive care, causes them not to be able to want to continue living on this world. Perhaps a combination of both. Also, I have the same belief of non-disabled, suicidal people. We may be able to relate with the subjects of their suffering, yet we should not judge a person's ability to cope with that suffering.

    I believe that God understands this, therefore, God doesn't punish people for suicide. Nor is hell a consequence of suicide.
  11. I found the thread from last year which was similar to this thread :

  12. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    Terry is right. The church now views the suicidal as mentally ill and not in the proper state of mind to decide their eternal fate.

    Mass murderers DO have the chance to repent though, but it has to be sincere. God knows people's hearts and He knows whether or not they are truly sincere in their repentance, or simply doing it out of fear of the unknown.

    This is why I am against the death penalty. I don't think it's right to cut someone's life short and deprive them of the opportunity to repent for their wrongdoings.

    Terry was right about Pope John Paul. A truly amazing man. I miss him :(
  13. Hae-Gi

    Hae-Gi Banned Member

    What a joke... suicide doesn't have to mean you're mentally ill, at all. I, for instance, want to die, together with my true love, and be together in death with her, sealing a limitlessly wonderful fate for all eternity. Indeed, however; the unenlightened mind sees these comments as proof of me being mentally ill... quite humorous. :laugh: Well, who the hell cares what they think... thankfully, however, they will realise the truth in another life, when it's the time for their souls to reach eternal bliss and perfection.

    Damn, now I'm putting suicide in a good light... this post should be edited out. Let's see if it happens...
  14. Entoloma43

    Entoloma43 Well-Known Member

    Most people who commit suicide have some form of depression, which is considered a psychiatric disorder.
  15. Random

    Random Well-Known Member

    I pretty much ignore the rules set forth in the religious doctrines of the world. I have my own code that I live by. In my book, the greatest consequence of suicide is the pain that loved ones will be left with.

    I don't feel that suicide is morally wrong in and of itself. Especially in cases where the person is suffering intolerable pain and will not live anyway. But their loved ones have to be considered. It isn't a religious thing. It's a question of having a heart.
  16. Random

    Random Well-Known Member

    I'm not a fan of this school of thought. I think that if a person isn't qualified to decide their own fate, for whatever reason, nobody else is either. Basically, I believe that people own themselves. My neighbor doesn't own me. And I surely don't wish to own him.

    I can (and do) smoke cigarettes, eat high fat foods, drink soda constantly, choose not to exercise and none of those things are considered mental illness. Even though they'll all kill you. It's considered unhealthy, yes. But people are allowed to choose. But we get so touchy when all the ambiguity is taken out of it and a person says "I don't want to live".

    Suddenly, something is wrong with them. I would never tell someone that because I wouldn't do something, they can't either. I would tell them all the reasons why they shouldn't. All the reasons why I wouldn't. But in the end, a person who is determined to drive themselves into a wall will do so and I don't have the right to stop them.
  17. Well-said Random... :smile:

    to add only this - the powers that be (or rather, would like to continue to be) have merely replaced one "stigma" with another (and few will generally be the wiser or more compassionate)
  18. Shogun

    Shogun Well-Known Member

    Thanx for the opinions guys, I feel a lot better about the decision I have made now.
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