Societies Failure

Do you feel you are at this point in your life due to societies failures? Mult. ans.

  • Yes, how can others that see this just do nothing?

    Votes: 11 30.6%
  • Yes, and the ones in control just don't care!

    Votes: 8 22.2%
  • Yes, but I also suffer from documented mental illness.

    Votes: 8 22.2%
  • No, I suffer from mental illness only.

    Votes: 3 8.3%
  • No, others have no power over me.

    Votes: 9 25.0%
  • No, I place myself at my current state of mind.

    Votes: 9 25.0%
  • Unsure, I have never really thought about this.

    Votes: 5 13.9%
  • Unsure, I'm not experienced enough to make this decision.

    Votes: 2 5.6%

  • Total voters
    36
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lonercarrot

Well-Known Member
#41
There's a difference between following the law and what we're talking about in this thread... What I was originally saying was what kids are taught at a very young age... Things like helping others, not bullying or telling the truth. Behaviour which has nothing to do with the law.

I don't fully understand why you brought the law up.

But I don't think a person decides to not rape someone only because it's against the law. It's not so much to control how people act but to protect people from others
 

Tomas

Well-Known Member
#42
There's a difference between following the law and what we're talking about in this thread... What I was originally saying was what kids are taught at a very young age... Things like helping others, not bullying or telling the truth. Behaviour which has nothing to do with the law.

I don't fully understand why you brought the law up.

But I don't think a person decides to not rape someone only because it's against the law. It's not so much to control how people act but to protect people from others
That was my answer to your question. The legal system here in England regulates pretty much everything and is becoming more dominating everyday. I figured it was relevant to this discussion. Perhaps it's different where you live.

If i'm off topic then i guess we have nothing further to discuss.
 

lonercarrot

Well-Known Member
#43
That was my answer to your question. The legal system here in England regulates pretty much everything and is becoming more dominating everyday. I figured it was relevant to this discussion. Perhaps it's different where you live.

If i'm off topic then i guess we have nothing further to discuss.
Not that you're off topic but even if you are, I don't care if you don't. The law in England makes bullying and lying illegal? I heard you guys were fucked (with the law) over there. Didn't you recently ban small boobs from porn? That sucks


Still, like I said the law isn't intended to control how people think. Although it can affect how they behave. There is the whole deterrent argument, I don’t buy it all that much. From what I learnt the law is there to protect people after the fact. So when something does happen to them, they can press charges agasint the guilty party. It's not to stop people from doing things, but to protect people when something happens. but it still works both ways.
 

Tomas

Well-Known Member
#44
That's how the law should work, of course. Now though, everyone is thought to be guilty of something and the legislation being passed these days is to cover the government's ass. They don't seem to realise that they're the ones responsible for fragmenting society.

If people were allowed to take control of their lives and communities again(and had the time to do so) then i believe the damage could be reversed.
 

Tomas

Well-Known Member
#46
Why? What could people do differently?
Quite simply, look out for each other. Not so much time for that these days, but the desire to do so is definitely there.

To be honest, i don't think we'll be in this position for a very long time, especially if things keep working the way they do.
 

lonercarrot

Well-Known Member
#47
Quite simply, look out for each other. Not so much time for that these days, but the desire to do so is definitely there.

To be honest, i don't think we'll be in this position for a very long time, especially if things keep working the way they do.
So you mean take the law into their own hands? When someone kills your friend you yourself go after that person?
 

Tomas

Well-Known Member
#50
Oh that's what I thought you meant by "If people were allowed to take control of their lives and communities again"
I might be sympathetic to anarchism, but i'm well aware that a society requires some sort of framework. I'm sure most people with anti-state sentiments realise this aswell.
 

lonercarrot

Well-Known Member
#51
I know what you mean, I have an anarchy “A” tattooed on my arm. But a lot of people are too radical and don't think enough about the big picture and what it takes to keep a society safe and prosperous. Even though their hearts might be in the right place

Anyways we are way off topic now. Anyway

You said "take control of their lives and communities again". Regain it from who?
 

Tomas

Well-Known Member
#52
I think we're pretty much on the same page, but i don't think we're going to get back on topic by talking about this anymore. This is general politics we're venturing into now, and i'm not sure this relates to depression a great deal.
 

plates

Well-Known Member
#53
No no. A kid soaks the thoughts and opinions of those around him like a sponge without question.
I would disagree, most children under a certain age have curiosity about the world in which they live. They will ask why? a lot. After a certain age, they might lose that capacity to question.

I also want to add, "kids" and "adults" are all very individual people. Some kids will be automated out of fear or other reasons, some kids will question everything.

I was one of those children and am one of those adults.

An adult already has a mindset and world view. And if challenged he can think for himself and reach his own conclusion. Of course learning new things and hearing new ideas can change how a person thinks, but adults have the ability to decide things for themselves whereas kids cannot, they just blindly listen to authority figures. That's all I meant.
Those conclusions might not be very different from many other conclusions, that say absolutely nothing, because the information they are getting again, says very little.
 

plates

Well-Known Member
#54
From your experience maybe, but not always. I alluded to social injustice in an entire paragraph, noting that in many cases, people are stuck in a poverty trap, in which they're in situations they can't help.
Yes, I did read.

Just because I didn't go any deeper into it doesn't mean I don't acknowledge it.
What troubled me about your post was, like you say, you allude to social injustice but then negate it with massive generalisations about "the obese, bad parents/children." It's something that I hear a lot in television programmes, pseudo-intellectuals, the subtext being:


Once again, you missed the fact that I acknowledged both scenarios. Yes, some people are stuck. I never said that wasn't the case. But some people are also where they are for other reasons. I'm referring to those people who either think they are stuck - and don't even at least try - or those that are mired in despair and poverty due to their own faults. You cannot deny that such people existence.
I'm curious as to what you think those reasons are, apart from personal laziness, fat food and the reasons you put in your previous posts?
Do you see any?

You treat the discussion of social equality as if it were an intentional diversion in my part, rather than a legitimate discussion in it's own right.
No I don't think it was intentional.


What's wrong with suggesting that people work their hardest and, if need be, seek help when it's not enough?
Because people are not the same, don't view what they are in the same way you do, and when they seek help, it might not be enough, and the person in question might be viewed as being worthless which again, affects the help they receive.

And of course I believe in the hard work mantra. You speak as if it's unreasonable too. There is evidence of the value of hard work everywhere. There is no denying that in many cases (not all) hard work does get you places. Granted, it depends on the individual person and their own unique circumstances, but it's not an impossible feat.
Yes, you again, acknowledge the individual person and unique circumstances. I don't want to go into this, but to put it short, I'm interested in this person.

I see it every day. I see people in lots of places who have worked for nothing and are completely lost in life and think certain citizens owe them and use them as scapegoats for their own frustrations.





Furthermore, I'd appreciate it if you didn't frame me based on your misinterpretation of my statements. Judging by your tone and accusations, you seem to believe I'm some sort of elitist. I assure that's not the case, and my thought process is far from 'insular,' since much of what I'm saying comes from personal experience.
I don't doubt a lot comes from your personal experience, as does my words.

I did not misinterpret anything as everything you said does not surprise me. I was picking out something based in a post which is full of, I don't know - grey wish-wash, "I acknowledge this, BUT what a bunch of lazy tossers who have no right to sit and complain and do nothing!"
I know you didn't say tosser. Okay? :tongue:

I have to add, you did not tell me what you thought a bad child was?
 
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Zurkhardo

Well-Known Member
#55
What troubled me about your post was, like you say, you allude to social injustice but then negate it with massive generalisations about "the obese, bad parents/children." It's something that I hear a lot in television programmes, pseudo-intellectuals, the subtext being:
In all honesty, I think you're being a tad too over-analytical.
I can't be entirely specific when speaking about such a broad topic, lest I load you with personal examples that I have experienced or viewed. On the other hand, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting the impression that you're making generalizations from the other side of the debate, in which all people who are down in life are such from outside, uncontrollable factors.

All I was saying is that some people among the examples I was referencing are troubled for their own lack of trying, whereas others are stuck for reasons beyond their control (i.e. social injustice, etc). That's it. The problem, I think, is that I'm viewing both situations as concurrent (perhaps too much so in your eyes) whereas you seem to think it can only be one or the other.

I'm curious as to what you think those reasons are, apart from personal laziness, fat food and the reasons you put in your previous posts?
Do you see any?
There are numerous reasons why people all where they are. In some cases, yes, it's social discrimination, a negative childhood environment, inborn mental problems, genetics, and other uncontrollable factors. I've known a lot of people that struggle with these factors, as you no doubt rightly insist is the case.

In many other cases, however, people just don't want to try, which in turn falls on other factors. Generally, they get caught up in the pleasantries of life and become spoiled, losing willpower and a sense of work ethic. I've seen this numerous times among many of my middle-class and upper-middle class friends, who want things to continue to come easy for them, and in the process lose responsibility for their health, finances, and life in general.

My point is simply that not everyone that is mired in poverty or some other trouble is there for outside reasons. I acknowledge that this sort of thing needs to be looked at by an individual basis, which is why I tried to be cautious when acknowledging both sides of the debate as valid, since, in terms of the bigger picture, they are.

Because people are not the same, don't view what they are in the same way you do, and when they seek help, it might not be enough, and the person in question might be viewed as being worthless which again, affects the help they receive.
I understand that. My point is, what you're referring to isn't always the case. You're always going to have exceptions, sure. But just because everyone starts in a different state of existence with different opportunities (or lack thereof) doesn't mean that they shouldn't all at least attempt to work themselves out of it. The person in question might not get enough help, or might be viewed as worthless. But is not better to try and see, with the chance that they can make it, rather than mire themselves in the status quo?

Furthermore, the problem is that I think viewing people too differently risks entrenching groups into their own stereotypes. If people are convinced to see themselves as being intrinsically unlucky or disenfranchised when compared to others, it risks creating an unhelpful mindset in which they view themselves as being beyond help. That's why I try to make an appeal to social equality, even though I acknowledge the exceptions (since every category and group has them).

Yes, you again, acknowledge the individual person and unique circumstances. I don't want to go into this, but to put it short, I'm interested in this person.

I see it every day. I see people in lots of places who have worked for nothing and are completely lost in life and think certain citizens owe them and use them as scapegoats for their own frustrations.
I see it too, and I know where you're coming from. But just because some people unfortunately don't make it doesn't mean that they're all doomed to such failure and shouldn't try. Where I live, one can see both sides. I've seen people make a living from scratch, from years and even decades of work, ane eventually become successful. I'm seen others do the same but never make it close. That's the unfortunate fact of life, and that's why I support social policies all the same - because you'll always have people that, try as they might, cannot make it.

I don't doubt a lot comes from your personal experience, as does my words.

I did not misinterpret anything as everything you said does not surprise me. I was picking out something based in a post which is full of, I don't know - grey wish-wash, "I acknowledge this, BUT what a bunch of lazy tossers who have no right to sit and complain and do nothing!"
I know you didn't say tosser. Okay? :tongue:

I have to add, you did not tell me what you thought a bad child was?
Alright, I get where you're coming from. The reason I'm taking the centrist perspective is because I genuinely believe both cases exist. I don't like it when people condemn social policies because they think that poor, troubled people are all at fault for their problems. At the same time though, I don't believe that everyone in such a state needs to be given handouts either. There's a little bit of truth in both cases, in my opinion.

What makes a bad child is, I acknowledge, subjective. I'm talking about kids that don't pay attention, have violent tendencies, lack respect and restraint, etc. I know this applies to all kids to a degree (it's part of growing up after all), but in a lot of cases, it falls down to bad parents, who often blame it on other factors but themselves.
 

BioHomocide

Well-Known Member
#57
No one is perfect and thus a group of imperfect people with flaws breed a imperfect society.

There will always be the haves and have nots. The sick and the healthy. The proud and the humble. Misery is a part of everyday life and no power could ever wipe sadness and despair out of existence. I can agree that some facets of society are terrible and that bad capitalism is atrocious and sometimes that big business does more harm then good but capitalism is run by peoples. You can buy into what you believe in while letting things you don't agree with fail and sink. Though this system isn't perfect either because the majority outlaws the minority and occasionally a lot of people trust into stupid business and unsafe products, both for society and economic well being.

But hm humans are aggressive beings. And such aggression causes much tribulation. We are greedy, angry, self righteous animals but on the other hand we are also kind, gentle and caring. We are animals and society is our cage. The Circus will continue to play on.
 

flowingriver

Well-Known Member
#59
I was born and lived till I was 14 in a little island nation. For those years in my life, I had never felt depression and loneliness as long I was there. Within nine months of coming to the United States, I felt my first bout with severe depression. The seeds were there within me before I came to America, but the environment caused it to burgeon and grow when I came here.

The first thing I noticed when I came here, was for the first time in my life, I saw many who shared a lack of concern for individuals in their lives, a lack of bonding, a coldness towards acquaintances that was accepted as norm here.

The other thing I noticed was the rapidity of changing friends that occured here that was accepted as normal. Friendships came, and went without any concerns for the bonds that were formed.

Putting your heart out there meant you were making yourself vulnerable almost all the time. People used masks instead to communicate fake feelings, being genuine would destroy you.

I soon learned that most everybody, except children and mad men, wore masks to survive this society.

Most people didn't care.

If somebody said they loved you and said they were your 'best friend' or made wonderful promises, they usually didn't mean it. At best, it was a sentiment off affection they felt at the moment.

Later on, I realized tht even vows of marriages were not sacred to many,
solemn commitments were often broken, and callousness was almost accepted as a necesary virtue.

Selfishness, greed and ruthlessness were virtues.

Lies were accepted to make the wheels turn smoothly, accepting lies or looking the other way, and self deception.

I saw things that were new to me - vacant stares, people who did not love or value themselves. I thought everybody in the world did, previously. I thought that it was normal to just enjoy life. But so many people did not, an did not seem to know how.

I saw so many kinds of mental illnesses, but as of yet I lacked the experience, the ability to comprehend, and the maturity to understand that what I was encountering was the symptoms of a society that had progressed so much in industrial development, that they no longer had the capacity to nurture the individual, and protect them from mental illnesses. A healthy society protects its members from isolation, depression, and feeling lack of self worth. It takes them as they come, not tries to change them beyond what is humanly possible. It accepts that people are individuals and incorporates there eccentricities into itself, without making them have to suppress them.

Members of a healthy society laughs often.
Members of a healthy society mixes often, regardless of economical status, and everyone has a place he can call his own.
Poverty does not exist as we know it, because everyone has a house or hut, and a garden or has family who has such. So food is available to all.

Suffering is shared and gone through as a society. No one suffers alone.
Loneliness and stress is almost unheard of. People do everything together. In difficult times, people come closer together.

Stress and loneliness is rare in my little island. Sharing all things in life is taught from the cradle, and people do not suffer mental illness as they do here. There is some mental illness there, but some of those persons were probably going to get it no matter where they were born. It does happen there, but it's rare, in my estimate.

I feel society, family and friends insures us against mental illnesses.
 
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