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Society and gov make a lot of us, this way.

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Lazarus102

Well-Known Member
#1
While the CEO's at the top get yearly 200 million dollar un-taxed bonuses, us people on the bottom would have to work 2-300 full time jobs for a lifetime in order to get that amount... Society is a joke these days and that's a large part of the reason that a lot of people are depressed. Our main drive if we're not able to find that special someone or decent friend/s; is to slave away for pennies on the dollar for some company that'd have us replaced within the day/week if we dropped dead on the floor.
When we don't have that god-given option to just go get a girlfriend or friends that won't betray or abandon us; the only option we're left with is money. In order to get enough money for financial happiness (IE: comfortable financial freedom from this life of servitude that we're born in to), we need to practically work ourselves to death (or literally in some cases). The gov don't care, the rich don't care. The people in charge only care about money.. So when love and friendships/relationships fail us, all there is left for us are distractions from the thoughts that inevitably plague our minds..
https://retirehappy.ca/two-big-surprises-retirement-canada/
And even retirement isn't a guarantee anymore, I read that the average people get on the Canadian CPP is 640 a month. That's great if you plan to retire to a room in your mother's basement suite..
They've set the standards so high, that unless you have a good education(which also costs a boatload of money), your only option is to work, work, work.. And if you have any habits that sap from your finances, then you have to work 2-3 jobs just to "live comfortably". Although I wouldn't call slaving away most of your waking hours in any way, comfortable; nor would I call it living..

What's worse is that society teaches us to get mad at the person in front of us (the customer service representative, or whatever other person slaving away for minimum legal wage, that's supposed to care so much when they're barely paid enough to stay alive), and not to get mad at the CEO, the government, or the businessmen that sit on the large stacks of cash that we make for them, and make all the major decisions about the sub-par products we buy from them at premium costs because it's our only option. Greed and self-interest, rule the world we live in.. But we're all just supposed to be happy that we're alive, and living in this country that has this nice little paper highlighting the handful of rights that they haven't yet taken from us.. How about the RIGHT to use my own two hands to build a house on an empty piece of land and call it mine. Can't do that, this government entity owns every square foot of land in our country and charges a large premium to purchase it, so they can tax the living F outta everything done on it..
 

JmpMster

Have a question? Message Me
Owner Emeritus
#2
I am sorry you are feeling this way and that you are angry and bitter right now- it is a difficult way to live.
 

Gonz

sick and tired of being sick and tired
#3
What's worse is that society teaches us to get mad at the person in front of us (the customer service representative, or whatever other person slaving away for minimum legal wage, that's supposed to care so much when they're barely paid enough to stay alive), and not to get mad at the CEO, the government, or the businessmen that sit on the large stacks of cash that we make for them
Fuckin’ right, and it’s no accident either. They’re robbing us blind and we’re too distracted squabbling over the scraps they leave behind to notice. And they love to position themselves as the “job creators” and to convince us that we’re dependant on them when, the fact is, if those smug fucks all vanished off the face of the earth right now, the world would keep on spinning probably even smoother than it already does while, if we were to abdicate our position for even just one fucking day, the whole goddamn rotten machine would come grinding to a halt. But they keep us too distracted chasing bullshit we don’t need, keep us too indebted to a system they created that we never asked for, to effectively organize. Fuck “society.”
 
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Gonz

sick and tired of being sick and tired
#4
You know, right now in this country, which likes to think of itself as the the most powerful, most advanced nation that has ever been (and endlessly promotes itself as such), our citizens are dying of easily preventable diseases. Real actual people with real actual lives and families are fucking dying, not because we can’t afford to treat them, but because it’s not profitable to do so.

You’re Canadian, yeah? Congrats on being better than us in that regard, at least.
 

Lazarus102

Well-Known Member
#5
You know, right now in this country, which likes to think of itself as the the most powerful, most advanced nation that has ever been (and endlessly promotes itself as such), our citizens are dying of easily preventable diseases. Real actual people with real actual lives and families are fucking dying, not because we can’t afford to treat them, but because it’s not profitable to do so.

You’re Canadian, yeah? Congrats on being better than us in that regard, at least.
I tell ya man, I hate being Canadian. Because it means living above the shitshow that is America. This country gets away with the crap it does and no one gives it a second thought cuz America is slightly worse. Of course it's worse, it's got 10X the people... You guy's expedited the conversion to mass capitalism. Also made it legal for anyone to own a gun, which was a good idea 100 (ish) years ago when the people could actually do anything about the government, but less so now. These days, a civil war in America would just be genocide...
But ya.. I'd rather live in Mexico; could be living the "Mexican dream". I bet I could build a house down there and not have to pay some corrupt government, an endless stream of taxes.
We go through all this here so we can live a life of "relative comfort". But in actuality, unless you've found any sense of meaning or have loved ones that haven't let you down, or some form of perpetual distraction, you're just a cog in the machine and your time off is the equivalent of sitting there with a needle in your arm, waiting to die. At least that's what it feels like to me. Work 40 hrs a week at some shit job, get home, too tired to do anything. Sit on couch and rot while dreading the next day; get a couple days off and sit there rotting away while trying not to think about the fact that I'll be right back to the endless grind in just a couple days. It may not be actual slavery but it certainly feels like a roundabout slavery. They give us just enough to be comfortably miserable. I mean, is it not totally fucked that working minimum wage for your entire life(with no extended vacations), you'd only make around 1-2 million dollars and that's if you avoided most forms of luxury the entire time and didn't have any credit cards and only saved it. At the rate of the housing market, within the next 10-20 years, it'll cost at least 1-2 million for a SMALL house in anywhere that's worth living. They've made owning a house a pipe dream for most people and even if they could afford the house, they'd never afford the godamn taxes..
 

Gonz

sick and tired of being sick and tired
#6
Just heard something in a youtube video that made me literally lol

“If parents treated their kids as equally as America treats its citizens, then one child would get a pony for Christmas and the rest would get cancer.”
 

Lazarus102

Well-Known Member
#7
Just heard something in a youtube video that made me literally lol

“If parents treated their kids as equally as America treats its citizens, then one child would get a pony for Christmas and the rest would get cancer.”
"If parents treated their kids as equally as Canada treats it's citizens, then one child would get a Lamborghini, one would get a pony, and the rest would get cancer."
We treat our citizens pretty well [in contrast to America], so we should bow down and kiss the feet of supreme leader Trudoh.
Oh, as for our oh so great health care, try having a dental issue. Those can literally kill you if you leave them for long enough, but some asshole in government, convinced people that dental work is for vanity only...
 

WhyGuy

New Member
#8
While the CEO's at the top get yearly 200 million dollar un-taxed bonuses, us people on the bottom would have to work 2-300 full time jobs for a lifetime in order to get that amount... Society is a joke these days and that's a large part of the reason that a lot of people are depressed. Our main drive if we're not able to find that special someone or decent friend/s; is to slave away for pennies on the dollar for some company that'd have us replaced within the day/week if we dropped dead on the floor.
When we don't have that god-given option to just go get a girlfriend or friends that won't betray or abandon us; the only option we're left with is money. In order to get enough money for financial happiness (IE: comfortable financial freedom from this life of servitude that we're born in to), we need to practically work ourselves to death (or literally in some cases). The gov don't care, the rich don't care. The people in charge only care about money.. So when love and friendships/relationships fail us, all there is left for us are distractions from the thoughts that inevitably plague our minds..
https://retirehappy.ca/two-big-surprises-retirement-canada/
And even retirement isn't a guarantee anymore, I read that the average people get on the Canadian CPP is 640 a month. That's great if you plan to retire to a room in your mother's basement suite..
They've set the standards so high, that unless you have a good education(which also costs a boatload of money), your only option is to work, work, work.. And if you have any habits that sap from your finances, then you have to work 2-3 jobs just to "live comfortably". Although I wouldn't call slaving away most of your waking hours in any way, comfortable; nor would I call it living..

What's worse is that society teaches us to get mad at the person in front of us (the customer service representative, or whatever other person slaving away for minimum legal wage, that's supposed to care so much when they'reher barely paid enough to stay alive), and not to get mad at the CEO, the government, or the businessmen that sit on the large stacks of cash that we make for them, and make all the major decisions about the sub-par products we buy from them at premium costs because it's our only option. Greed and self-interest, rule the world we live in.. But we're all just supposed to be happy that we're alive, and living in this country that has this nice little paper highlighting the handful of rights that they haven't yet taken from us.. How about the RIGHT to use my own two hands to build a house on an empty piece of land and call it mine. Can't do that, this government entity owns every square foot of land in our country and charges a large premium to purchase it, so they can tax the living F outta everything done on it..
There is a lot of truth to your words. I'm in the U.S. Here the entire system is owned and run by the uber-rich. As these are deeply invested in major international conglomerates, it is they making the rules we have to live and abide by. I was born in 1960. I was taught the American Dream as a promise: Go to school, be well rounded, don't get in real trouble, be an active member of one's community, get the job, do your best job, take care of the job and the job (now career) will take care of you. Society broke the "deal". My parent's generation broke the deal. Reagan (and Milt Freidman) broke the deal. We bought into a sham known as Supply-Side Economics. We stopped enforcing anti-monopolistic trust laws. The mighty Corporation became the end-all to fix everything. And the stock market became the "Economy". And we did it. We voted for all it.
That was 40 years ago. And we are still there. In fact it has become far worse. We are now celebrating "winning" thru taking advantage of others as long as it benefits your business (including illegal activity). Just look at who we elected President and our inability or unwilingness to do anything about the travesty it truly is.
WE BROKE SOCIETY OURSELVES. And we did it voluntarily. How? Thru destruction of our public education system. I observed this happening following my graduation from high school in 1978. I was the oldest of 3. My youngest sister had a very different education than I. My own children's education is not recognizable from mine. Civics disappeared. Arts disappeared (Art is math folks!). Sports programs I knew, no longer existed. Reasoning and Critical Thinking disappeared completely. The biggest change I experienced is parents involvement in a child's education, and the requirement(s) imposed by the school(s). With such changes and lack of knowledge, how can a society make rational decisions. It can't. And we have proven just that.
 

Lazarus102

Well-Known Member
#10
There is a lot of truth to your words. I'm in the U.S. Here the entire system is owned and run by the uber-rich. As these are deeply invested in major international conglomerates, it is they making the rules we have to live and abide by. I was born in 1960. I was taught the American Dream as a promise: Go to school, be well rounded, don't get in real trouble, be an active member of one's community, get the job, do your best job, take care of the job and the job (now career) will take care of you. Society broke the "deal". My parent's generation broke the deal. Reagan (and Milt Freidman) broke the deal. We bought into a sham known as Supply-Side Economics. We stopped enforcing anti-monopolistic trust laws. The mighty Corporation became the end-all to fix everything. And the stock market became the "Economy". And we did it. We voted for all it.
That was 40 years ago. And we are still there. In fact it has become far worse. We are now celebrating "winning" thru taking advantage of others as long as it benefits your business (including illegal activity). Just look at who we elected President and our inability or unwilingness to do anything about the travesty it truly is.
WE BROKE SOCIETY OURSELVES. And we did it voluntarily. How? Thru destruction of our public education system. I observed this happening following my graduation from high school in 1978. I was the oldest of 3. My youngest sister had a very different education than I. My own children's education is not recognizable from mine. Civics disappeared. Arts disappeared (Art is math folks!). Sports programs I knew, no longer existed. Reasoning and Critical Thinking disappeared completely. The biggest change I experienced is parents involvement in a child's education, and the requirement(s) imposed by the school(s). With such changes and lack of knowledge, how can a society make rational decisions. It can't. And we have proven just that.
Truth in your words as well.. Critical thinking has been dulled down so much that, any political message that won't fit into a twitter post, is beyond the understanding of most people. Try to explain the corruption in the government and people act like you're off your meds; despite the fact that they themselves continue to post all of the idiocy birthed by the great Trudoh.. I had a falling out with my favorite aunt for exactly this reason.. I do love her but I won't give up my right to freedom of speech for anyone.. Don't blame yourself based on whom you vote for.. That's exactly what the government wants. That's why they give the option to vote in the first place; so we can sit around and blame each other when the country goes to shit.. That's precisely why I don't vote. The fact is that the corporations own the government. That would have happened regardless of whom was in charge. They cycle out the pres every 4 years, so that if anyone gets in with good intentions and idealism's (like Obama), they'll get drummed out before they can effect any real extreme positive change.
I honestly think that whole gun thing they got you guys fighting over down there is beyond stupid. It was originally enacted so the people could do something about government corruption, but now, if people tried to revolt (as I said prior), it'd just be genocide. The gov would deem you all to be terrorists and use the army to swat you like a fly. They'd be seen as the heroes and have medals pinned on them for it and you'd all be seen as anti-american terrorists (and probably get buried upside down and pissed on or something). The gov has our countries people brainwashed to such an extent that they'd need to pull a full on Hitler move in order to make the military that they control, bat an eyelash.
Honestly, dumb as it may sound, I'd love to crowd fund the purchase of a private island, and have all the people that are done with this shit, move there, and live life the way humanity was meant to. I mean Jim Jones had the right idea if he wasn't a religious nutcase.. He also kinda ruined it for modern day people wanting to take such a stance; I mean, who wants to follow someone that could end up making them "drink the kool-aid", regardless of how righteous the motive.

PS: Trudoh managed to piss off enough people to actually get anti-gov protest started in Canada https://www.facebook.com/groups/565213087274651/ At least the dumbass was good for something..
 
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#11
While the CEO's at the top get yearly 200 million dollar un-taxed bonuses, us people on the bottom would have to work 2-300 full time jobs for a lifetime in order to get that amount... Society is a joke these days and that's a large part of the reason that a lot of people are depressed. Our main drive if we're not able to find that special someone or decent friend/s; is to slave away for pennies on the dollar for some company that'd have us replaced within the day/week if we dropped dead on the floor.
When we don't have that god-given option to just go get a girlfriend or friends that won't betray or abandon us; the only option we're left with is money. In order to get enough money for financial happiness (IE: comfortable financial freedom from this life of servitude that we're born in to), we need to practically work ourselves to death (or literally in some cases). The gov don't care, the rich don't care. The people in charge only care about money.. So when love and friendships/relationships fail us, all there is left for us are distractions from the thoughts that inevitably plague our minds..
https://retirehappy.ca/two-big-surprises-retirement-canada/
And even retirement isn't a guarantee anymore, I read that the average people get on the Canadian CPP is 640 a month. That's great if you plan to retire to a room in your mother's basement suite..
They've set the standards so high, that unless you have a good education(which also costs a boatload of money), your only option is to work, work, work.. And if you have any habits that sap from your finances, then you have to work 2-3 jobs just to "live comfortably". Although I wouldn't call slaving away most of your waking hours in any way, comfortable; nor would I call it living..

What's worse is that society teaches us to get mad at the person in front of us (the customer service representative, or whatever other person slaving away for minimum legal wage, that's supposed to care so much when they're barely paid enough to stay alive), and not to get mad at the CEO, the government, or the businessmen that sit on the large stacks of cash that we make for them, and make all the major decisions about the sub-par products we buy from them at premium costs because it's our only option. Greed and self-interest, rule the world we live in.. But we're all just supposed to be happy that we're alive, and living in this country that has this nice little paper highlighting the handful of rights that they haven't yet taken from us.. How about the RIGHT to use my own two hands to build a house on an empty piece of land and call it mine. Can't do that, this government entity owns every square foot of land in our country and charges a large premium to purchase it, so they can tax the living F outta everything done on it..
I agree with you.

What I don't understand is - why? Why do the people in power hate us SO much that they do this to us? Why do they still want more and more control over us?

Why are they so evil and most of the rest of us just mind our own business (try to)

Why do they want to hurt and kill us?

How come us ordinary folk mostly don't want wars and conflict, yet they in power do?

I honestly hope that there will be a way for them to be punished some day. I wish there to be an afterlife and Hell for them to go to.

We are born and don't even ask for much really, just to get on with our lives and have enough food and safety and to be happy, that's so much to ask in their eyes? WHY? :(
 

Lazarus102

Well-Known Member
#12
I agree with you.

What I don't understand is - why? Why do the people in power hate us SO much that they do this to us? Why do they still want more and more control over us?

Why are they so evil and most of the rest of us just mind our own business (try to)

Why do they want to hurt and kill us?

How come us ordinary folk mostly don't want wars and conflict, yet they in power do?

I honestly hope that there will be a way for them to be punished some day. I wish there to be an afterlife and Hell for them to go to.

We are born and don't even ask for much really, just to get on with our lives and have enough food and safety and to be happy, that's so much to ask in their eyes? WHY? :(
"Does the giant consider the ant beneath it's feet?" That's kinda the thing, they don't consider us. We are nothing more than tools to further their agenda. They consider our votes and our purchases but not our lives. They are like the kings of old that would dine on tables full of vast food selection, most of which would go to waste, while their subjects starve. It's amazing the people don't fight back. Honestly the mainstreaming of psychology is the worst thing that's happened to our societies. Now the gov knows how to fuck us just hard enough to prevent us from fighting it. It took Trudoh, releasing a national terrorist and giving him 10.5 million dollars of taxpayer money, just to start a few tiny protests across the country... The show-up in front of Toronto city hall was pathetic.. there's like, millions of people in Toronto and 5 (ish) people showed up.. The gov would literally have to start murdering people in the streets(and not stop) in order to provoke any serious form of revolution.. They could probably murder 20 people in every major city in Canada, stop at that and just glaze it over and people still wouldn't do anything.
That's why I said in the above post, only sensible way for us to get out from under the government's boot, would be to crowd fund the purchase of a private island, and fly the coop. Basically a do-over. I'm often reminded of that movie "the beach", basically that but without the guns and illegal drug operation.
 
#13
You are right, a do-over like you mention would be the best thing. Only problem is, they would probably still hunt us down, they never let us just be. I watched a thing about a woman living in the woods in Wales, no electricity, in just a little hut she made herself and gets food donated to her. She STILL has to pay council tax to live on that land in the middle of nowhere. If these people in power could buy the sun and charge us for it, they would.
 

Lazarus102

Well-Known Member
#14
You are right, a do-over like you mention would be the best thing. Only problem is, they would probably still hunt us down, they never let us just be. I watched a thing about a woman living in the woods in Wales, no electricity, in just a little hut she made herself and gets food donated to her. She STILL has to pay council tax to live on that land in the middle of nowhere. If these people in power could buy the sun and charge us for it, they would.
That's fucked... I'd refuse to pay the taxes and film that shit, make a damn documentary on it. Show the world what corrupt piece of shit our government is, as they drag me away and lock me up for not bending to their will.
 
#15
That's fucked... I'd refuse to pay the taxes and film that shit, make a damn documentary on it. Show the world what corrupt piece of shit our government is, as they drag me away and lock me up for not bending to their will.
We are all controlled by very sick, evil greedy beings. Yes, there are ways to raise awareness, some people will never see it, some will see it and do nothing. Frankly, at times I would rather be dead than exist in this prison they call 'life'
 

Lazarus102

Well-Known Member
#16
We are all controlled by very sick, evil greedy beings. Yes, there are ways to raise awareness, some people will never see it, some will see it and do nothing. Frankly, at times I would rather be dead than exist in this prison they call 'life'
I hear ya man, but ending life early just means they win. You think those fuckers care about one person? They'd just hire another immigrant to do your job for a dollar (or more) less. I know that no one gives an ass about me, but this is my fuckin life, fuck them thoughtless twats. If worse comes to worse, I'll go live in mexico as an illegal and find a way to be happy there, or steal a boat and strand myself on some random island. Sure the survival rate in the latter would be low, but hell, it beats outright killing myself. At least in that scenario, I'd die fighting, and it'd be a hell of an adventure. That's the problem with life, there's no adventure anymore.. I mean in general.. we grow out of being kids and being mature means no more real, uncontrolled fun; I mean outside of getting stupid drunk and assaulting your neighbor's kid at the pool party that you were never invited to. PS: not a personal experience, I don't drink.
Just occurred to me, that's probably why our society is so dependent on alcohol.. It's an excuse to act like a child, to break the invisible bonds that prevent us from saying all the things we want to say, or of doing the things we want to do, of being human basically..
 
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#17
I hear ya man, but ending life early just means they win. You think those fuckers care about one person? They'd just hire another immigrant to do your job for a dollar (or more) less. I know that no one gives an ass about me, but this is my fuckin life, fuck them thoughtless twats. If worse comes to worse, I'll go live in mexico as an illegal and find a way to be happy there, or steal a boat and strand myself on some random island. Sure the survival rate in the latter would be low, but hell, it beats outright killing myself. At least in that scenario, I'd die fighting, and it'd be a hell of an adventure. That's the problem with life, there's no adventure anymore.. I mean in general.. we grow out of being kids and being mature means no more real, uncontrolled fun; I mean outside of getting stupid drunk and assaulting your neighbor's kid at the pool party that you were never invited to. PS: not a personal experience, I don't drink.
Just occurred to me, that's probably why our society is so dependent on alcohol.. It's an excuse to act like a child, to break the invisible bonds that prevent us from saying all the things we want to say, or of doing the things we want to do, of being human basically..
I give an ass about you. And yes, I do have mostly determination to stay alive. I know they don't care about any of us. This has gone on for centuries. I see how corrupt everything is down to the point now where i cannot look at anything from hollywood. It's a blessing though, no more time wasting on meaningless things created by evil people. The movies have their evil messages in them everywhere you look. Once you start seeing it, you cannot stop. It would drive you mad if you were weak. People will do anything to 'escape' - alcohol and drugs are one of the ways. We grow up and stay in our little cages ('homes') like in one large zoo, really. It sounds mad to anyone who hasn't thought much about it, they just don't see it. Plato's allegory of the cave, isn't it? Well, there's no going back in the cave, only solution is to get further away from it once you're out.
 

Lazarus102

Well-Known Member
#18
I give an ass about you. And yes, I do have mostly determination to stay alive. I know they don't care about any of us. This has gone on for centuries. I see how corrupt everything is down to the point now where i cannot look at anything from hollywood. It's a blessing though, no more time wasting on meaningless things created by evil people. The movies have their evil messages in them everywhere you look. Once you start seeing it, you cannot stop. It would drive you mad if you were weak. People will do anything to 'escape' - alcohol and drugs are one of the ways. We grow up and stay in our little cages ('homes') like in one large zoo, really. It sounds mad to anyone who hasn't thought much about it, they just don't see it. Plato's allegory of the cave, isn't it? Well, there's no going back in the cave, only solution is to get further away from it once you're out.
I hate Hollywood for paying people that play-act, more than I'd make in many lifetimes. But I do love movies and shows. Big blockbusters. I don't love that they keep putting meaningless relationships in every movie/show.. I don't want to watch two people, with next to no basis for a relationship, kiss in the middle of an action scene for no fucking reason whatsoever (other than pointless filler).. That crap can go to hell but the stories and the action, well, that's my escape from life. At least until I'm in any position to improve it. My ADHD, depression and anxiety are too bad to put that amount of time into focusing on productive things (otherwise I would). I just know that I can't sit around working a crap job for the rest of my life. There's no meaning, no purpose, work to live, live to escape life, spend most my waking hours miserable at the job/slavery position.
 
#19
I hate Hollywood for paying people that play-act, more than I'd make in many lifetimes. But I do love movies and shows. Big blockbusters. I don't love that they keep putting meaningless relationships in every movie/show.. I don't want to watch two people, with next to no basis for a relationship, kiss in the middle of an action scene for no fucking reason whatsoever (other than pointless filler).. That crap can go to hell but the stories and the action, well, that's my escape from life. At least until I'm in any position to improve it. My ADHD, depression and anxiety are too bad to put that amount of time into focusing on productive things (otherwise I would). I just know that I can't sit around working a crap job for the rest of my life. There's no meaning, no purpose, work to live, live to escape life, spend most my waking hours miserable at the job/slavery position.
I hear you, there are some that are still entertaining. They do seem to do as you say, put in meaningless relationships a lot, i noticed that too. I used to revolve my life around tv, that was my escape, comedies mostly, now i can barely watch them. I have watched a lot of programmes on people who moved to the 'wild' - all around the world, not one of them has said they would go back to cities or built up areas. They all seemed much more content and felt more of a sense of purpose. The city life can cause depression.
 

Lazarus102

Well-Known Member
#20
I hear you, there are some that are still entertaining. They do seem to do as you say, put in meaningless relationships a lot, i noticed that too. I used to revolve my life around tv, that was my escape, comedies mostly, now i can barely watch them. I have watched a lot of programmes on people who moved to the 'wild' - all around the world, not one of them has said they would go back to cities or built up areas. They all seemed much more content and felt more of a sense of purpose. The city life can cause depression.
Not just city life.. small town can be even worse. At least cities have all of the amenities that make living in government run society, worth it at all. I'd highly consider a move out to the bush, but not in Canada, I'd freeze to death in the winter.. also, as lonely as life is now, bush life would be worse. At least here I got this. Starting a new utopia out in the bush or on an island would be one thing, a group effort to make a society worth living in. But I'd only go it solo if I was desperate.
 
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