suicide : a welfare phenomenon?

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by Azul, Aug 29, 2007.

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  1. Azul

    Azul Well-Known Member

    It seems to me that suicide is contemplated most in societies where there is some degree of luxury and welfare. I think in poor countries, like African countries, where people have it tougher, there are less "suicidal tendencies". I am not sure of this, but this seems to be the way it is. Are we spoiled? How come we are so sensitive? If anyone has any comments on this I'd love to hear them.
     
  2. Anime-Zodiac

    Anime-Zodiac Well-Known Member

    It's hard to tell. A what point have we become soft? I don't think we have since life was soo tough many years ago and as a world, we've been trying to make things easier for ourselves as well as developing ourselves further.

    But I do agree that some of us in the developed world have become spoilt and do take things for granted. It's pretty sad and pathetic but thats life. Some people do not realize how lucky they are.

    I think overall suicide rates are similar in both developed and un-developed countries. You hear about it more in developed countries because of the coverage and attention put towards it.
     
  3. Azul

    Azul Well-Known Member

    I'm looking at an overview from the world health organisation right now:

    http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/

    it seems the highest rates are in eastern european countries. In "third world" countries the figures are very low compared to "first world" countries (maybe it also has to do a lot with climate?)

    One thing that amazes me is the relatively low figure of the Netherlands, compared to e.g. Belgium and Germany, who have a similar degree of wealth and a similar climate as it is the country that has most people per square kilometer. They seem to have found a way to live with a lot of people in a little space.

    Maybe people who live a hard life learn to cope better with difficulties from a young age, and do not allow the thought of suicide? But I think in eastern europe there are a lot of people who have lived a hard life as well?

    Maybe it has something to do with secularisation, or the dissapearance of a particular type of religious unity (in the US, lots of people are religious, but there is less "community" feeling than in traditional catholic countries for example)?
     
  4. Axiom

    Axiom Account Closed

    I wouldimagine in harder countries you get tougher, and have less time to sit in the luxery that alot of us have. I mean, if you're born into hardhsip, you learn very quickly to protect yourself, and protect what is precious to you. And probably you've been subjected to alot more pain and suffereing in many number of direct aspects, giving you more of a choice right there and then to fall or get moving and past it.

    Comes with your own life doesn't it. All the subjections and experiences of your life, the free time you have to dwell on certain things, the depths you go, the hardships you endure, the pains and joys you feel. I'm sure in harder countries, simple things to us give them great pleasure, because in all honesty, we live in a society where we take thigns for granted.( but for the most part, that taking for granted aspect allows us to go further and deeper into feelings and developemnts, in all forms)

    We build alot of our selves on fake aspects of life to be honest, or jump from conclusion to conclusion without truly walkign the line and in turn we miss so many fundamental points and understandings along the road, when we eralize it, it drives us nuts.

    in harder countries too, you have more dominate thoughts and aspects in you, like surviving. For us who are privilaged, yeah.. survival is an aspect we can toy with. It's another exsistence all together, that has core points that connect the different ways of living, but in the end are unique to their own.


    We're spoiled.. and fuck im going to use every part of that spoilage to my advantage.. or i could spiral down the toilet thinking about it, which ain't my cup of tea. I'm aware of what my society does, doesn't mean I have to be my society..


    Also, we are fucking desensitised. Spelling.

    REALLY are. People who experience situations first hand know so much more than someone who hears about it from someone else, or reads it in the paper or on the internet, or from a book, or on CNN, or in a class. Some people think they understand an issue or feeling, they use assosication until it becomes a rape of the term assosication and they bounce off one perception until they think they understand an issue or feeling by 'circling' it by points they use that they think they understand, and claim to understand, but really have no experience in the true aspect they ar etalking about, kind of like the bullshit i just wrote cause i think i understand what you are talkign about but in truth i have no fn idea about what you are talking about im just producing bullshit for you to read but maybe you can understand my point of writing bullshit about something i know nothing about to see that people can make themselves believe bullshit and then accept it and move on, claiming to udnerstand what the question(s) was. Then they get so far, build a string of bullshit, then someday, they REALLY do hit a real experience, and all the bullshit fades and they can no longer hide from the fact of their lies and crumple under the fake and real world they are underneath, because they never naturally grew or sought out real life, but claimed to themselves to touch with those understandings that come from natural experiences good and bad.

    Bullshit reigns?


    so here's my question for you


    where the hell did this come from

    Are you from a developed nation?

    Are you jsut maybe mroe aware of the pain and suffering of the people in your society as opposed to others?


    Who told you
     
  5. Axiom

    Axiom Account Closed

    btw im really off my head so :tongue:

    i gave up trying to understand a race or group, .. individuals are my mystery.

    all i get about groups is a chaos, with individuals percieving something then expressing it. Groups to me are powerful, and interesting to look at, but suicide groups :S ... your scale is too large and general for a real answer in my opinon. You'd have to zero in alot more.


    In my opinon
     
  6. Ziggy

    Ziggy Antiquitie's Friend

    Perhaps in poorer countries people feel they are needed more. For example, in many parts of Africa they generally have larger families then in Britain, and rely more on family members to earn money, provide food and generally care for each other. So life is tougher but there is a purpose to it.

    Whereas people like me, just live on my own, so it doesn't really matter to anyone whether I live or die. Again, in Japan the highest rate of suicide is amongst the elderly, many of whom commit suicide because they don't want to be a burden to their family, maybe a lot of it has to do with your connection to other people.
     
  7. Azul

    Azul Well-Known Member

    Yes. I can see that. Maybe an important fact is indeed the feeling of purposefullness. Western society is often characterized / caricaturised as being "atomised", where people don't really have a connection to a greater whole anymore and are left with fulfilling some task that they don't really identify with in service of the economy.
     
  8. Azul

    Azul Well-Known Member

    It's just something I was wondering about. I live in a developed nation, Belgium, one of the wealthiest in the world (also because it is so small off course). It's just a feeling that I had from interaction with foreigners, watching foreign movies etc... it seems mostly "whites" and "orientals", to put it crude, that suffer from the kind of problems that are displayed on a forum like this. That's not being racialist, it has more to do with culture. And the WHO statistics seem to acknowledge my intuition: the suicide rate is comparatively low in most third world countries.
     
  9. Suicide wasn't an issue in communist Yugoslavia and Russia.

    Suicide is a result of social darwinism. The unlucky die in capitalist societies.

    It's a modern phenomenon in Slovenia. The division of classes. Hedonism, materalism, and invidualism. The pressure to excess in capitalist societies. The ambition and competititon. In short, the selfishness.

    Suicides don't exist in nature. It is a direct result of civilization.

    Africans are closer to nature. They have harder lives, but they fight to stay alive. In the west because of the poison I've cited earlier, depression is a big issue.

    You can't have your cake and eat it too.

    Amen, praise Jesus.

    Capitalists are so lazy. It's incredible.

    The recipe for high suicide rates, Civilization, plus then Capitalism.

    Capitalists are the reason why so many kill themselves. Capitalists are the mass murderers, not Cho-Seung Hui, or the columbie kids.
     
  10. The_Discarded

    The_Discarded Staff Alumni

    Hm (bear with me my linguistic incoherence).

    I think, when you have to worry about whether or not you and your family are going to be able to eat at some point within the next week, your most intense of emotions are pushed aside for awhile and you focus on the here-and-now.

    Not to say they don't feel just as deeply as anyone else. Rather, sometimes, given desperation in search for basic needs, you forget your emotions.

    If an individual is missing some necessity for life, his or her mind becomes fixated on it. Without physiological needs, any desire for a more complex need (safety, belongingness, esteem [think Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs]) dwindles as the more fundamental comes to the fore-front.

    The sickness of heart and desolation of mind (though, surely it's not limited to that; just typically) that frequently bring about the ideation of suicide are conveniently tossed away as you search for your next meal.

    We've all got our own battles. With one fulfillment, another potential trouble is opened.

    A lot of people in third-world nations don't yet have that "one fulfillment".

    :laugh: And, yeah. Perhaps we're spoiled... :hiding:

    Besides that, it might be influenced by familial units and/or spirituality being capitalized upon to a stronger degree, as that is literally all that some of these less-fortunates have.
    Or the media, perhaps? I'm sure there are many possible standing factors...
     
  11. Instead of getting at the rootcause of problems, modernized and stupidized people want to control consequences they engender. If there are symptoms, it's cuz there's a disease present. Instead of fighting symptoms, that will keep reaccuring, until the disease is addressed, we should try healing the disease, and the symptoms will disappear at once. People want to have their cake and eat it, too.


    Another example would be AIDS, instead of teaching abstinence, we legalize porn and distribute porn. Ironically, condoms are the reason, why AIDS is an important issue. But people want to have their cake and eat it, too.

    We need radical changes, until then, keep fighting symptoms.

    Close the leak, instead of taking out the flooded water with buckets.


    Amen, praise Jesus.
     
  12. The_Discarded

    The_Discarded Staff Alumni

    Interesting. I see your point.

    But can you relate this to the initial topic of the post, please?

    I'm genuinely curious about what you think this has to do with the higher prevalence of suicide in more privileged nations.
     
  13. xan

    xan Chat Buddy

    Perhaps it's something to do with the fact that because they are born into a poor country they grow up not expecting much from life and the high child mortality rates mean to them being alive is an achievment.
    In our society we seem to have an ideal that we try to reach, all told to have a perfect family, large house, best car, most expensive computer etc. But in reality that's not possible for many of us. A few decades ago there seemed to be a stricter shut up and deal with it attitude and class divides that would keep aspirations low. Perhaps it's because we're blinded my the medias ideas of being rich, beautiful, famous, heroic etc.
     
  14. rojomi

    rojomi Banned Member

    Just a thought. Documented suicides are fairly obvious. For example, the highest rate in the u.s. is among young black males-a very disenfranchised group. In third world countries, the suicide rate may be at the same level, or higher. But not documented as such. As far as assigning blame to a system of government, culture, or anything else-it would seem more appropriate to cite despair as the culprit above all else.
     
  15. Azul

    Azul Well-Known Member

  16. Azul

    Azul Well-Known Member

    alright then, which system, which culture, which climate produces the most desperate people?
     
  17. rojomi

    rojomi Banned Member

    :unsure: The article's a little outdated,( copyright 2002). The "young black male" statistic, for the u.s., was something i assumed still applied. Wrong, at least according to wikipedia, highest u.s. group for suicide was listed as elderly males.
    I have no answer to which culture, climate etc. induces suicide. I have an opinion tho. For myself, I don't blame any one thing for the fact that I often think about offing myself. It's a set of circumstances that are unique to each individual, leading to the conviction, logical or not, that things will not improve.
    btw wikipedia also cited India as having as high a suicide rate per year as u.s.
    (30,000). I doubt if their homicide rate is close to ours, 20,000. Bizarre, the nation w/ the highest G/N/P in the world has 20,000 homicides & 30,000 suicides per year. the american dream is a nightmare.:laugh:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 31, 2007
  18. Whitewolf

    Whitewolf Well-Known Member

    We are not living as we were intended to have lived. Read Walden by Thoreau. THAT is how we are intended to live. I'm not saying we can't be "civilized" or advance civilization. The two are not incompatible for us. I think we can live how Thoreau suggests, be content, and still make contributions to society. We are a great people :D.

    To the_discarded, Africa is the most priviledged continent on the earth. It's natural resources are abundant, it's people populous. Aids is a recent phenomenon. Yet THEY have the lowest suicide rates even with the new diseases and their hardships. We do not consider ourselves worthy to live despite all our advancements, whereas everyone I've met from there has an incredibly large ego despite the fact that they contribute nothing to civilization.

    Young Black males have the lowest suicide rates in America. Middle-aged White males, the highest. Incase you were curious. This information can be viewed on:
    www.census.gov

    Liberal policies and viewpoints often make me and (confidentially) my friends depressed. The same is true with the perverted conservatism of today. Deep down, many white males feel useless and unwanted, what do you expect when having pride in your race and gender is considered taboo?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 3, 2007
  19. The_Discarded

    The_Discarded Staff Alumni


    To me, your views come off as rather ethnocentric (and, dare I say it, subjective?). Which is fine, but I present and hold true to the counterpoint.

    Africa is the most privileged country on Earth? Not after European powers began conquering and dividing every aspect of the continent, leaving Africans with little but their natural resources and population. They formed cultural barriers that did nothing but create hostility and instability among Africa. Invaded cultures hardly ever prosper (especially when invaded in an unproductive manner).

    Besides, ever thought that people in more privileged countries have even larger egos, despite the fact that we contribute to making society greedier and less humane? Africans have some of the most divorce cultures and languages. There's a contribution. Too bad they've had everything else ripped from them, deterring them from greater contribution.

    Everyone you've met from there has an incredibly large ego. That's in relation to your experience, which is most definitely not the end-all, be-all. Everyone I've met from there is not egoistic at all. Rather, they tend to be understanding and interesting. The most egoistic and cynical of people, in relation to my observation, are often in those nations other than third-world. But that's in relation to my experience, which I dare not pass as fact.

    In regards to the AIDS epidemic, so it's recent? And that makes it... what? Better? Africans do not have good healthcare systems (sometimes, they lack healthcare systems at all). Anti-retrovirals, used in the treatment of retroviruses such as HIV are not available. That, to you, is privileged? Developed nations have this. Africa (for the most part) does not. Their HIV has become full-blown AIDS before any American has time to utter the word 'hamburger'. And then what? They have not the ability to work. They have not the ability to prosper. They have not the ability to 'contribute to civilization'. Instead of blaming them, why don't we consider this a chance to learn (as many of us have been) and stop being so high-and-mighty? No one's particularly in the right. Privileged countries have done just as much (and frequently more) bad than anyone else.

    The notion that Africa remains the most undeveloped continent even though they've some of the highest amount of resources is due in great part to slave trade, violation of human rights, despotism (in-forced and reinforced by other, larger nations), and incompetent governmental systems. What region could contribute anything after having been robbed of what could have been? If this were to happen to... oh, say, Americans, we would be shaking in our thousand-dollar-boots and going to war with abandon. As soon as we get wind of potential bloodshed, we jump on the opportunity. And what does that contribute to civilization? Absolutely nothing. That isn't to say if, in this day and age, Africans had the means to the military power they wouldn't do the same. They probably would. In most respects, we are no different than the continent at hand.

    You consider the problem of AIDS to be a factor in deeming Africans uncontributory to the betterment of our world? But you don't consider Depression, suicide, and mental/emotional problems the same? Africa isn't the only place in which the suicide rates are low. Yeah, many Africans aren't trying to kill themselves. Would you rather that they be? Each day, 6 000 Africans die of AIDS (http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/Africa/AIDS.asp). Over 30 000 Americans die of suicide each year. (http://www.nmha.org/go/information/get-info/suicide, http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/t060517.html). And what does this say about survival of the fittest?

    Both AIDS and Depression are diseases regardless, claiming lives (with no discrimination as to the amount), neither any more beneficial than the other, neither group of people deserving the illness, and neither group of people asking for it.

    Why should it have to do with some made-up difference in people based upon their ethnicity? So what it ain't our country? It's our WORLD. There does not have to be a "bad guy" one way or the other. We don't have to be so detrimentally separated. I think, instead of it boiling down to some discrepancy in culture, it's simply to do with how we've learned to cope, what we've grown up in, where our priorities stand.

    I agree with this, to an extent. You say yourself that part of the issue is what they are exposed to. So then why chalk it up to character traits here?:

    It's simply, and again I state, to do with what we've learned based on example, and where our priorities stand.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 4, 2007
  20. Azul

    Azul Well-Known Member

    Whitewolf wrote: Deep down, many white males feel useless and unwanted, what do you expect when having pride in your race and gender is considered taboo

    But why should you be proud of something you have actually nothing to do with? Something that just happened to you? I don’t understand this. I’d rather be proud of what I have done than what I am (which is something contingent). If you can be proud of what you are, then pride is meaningless, because anything that is can be proud of what it is, which devalues particular pride (which is the feeling of being better than some other particular form).
    “Pride” is then a correlate of the conservative credo that “what is must be good because it is”, just like those who want to sanctify a particular moment in nature’s course (eg pre-technological nature), a particular moment in history as “good” (pre-historical cyclical pagan times for example), simply because it was “there”. It is fear of change, I will repeat it: inertia in the mind, it is the desire to have a stable truth in a dynamic world, to have rest in thought. It rejects any change, any becoming, any possible synthesis, autonomy of the human spirit.
    It is to me not surprising that modern reactionaries like those who want to go back to pagan rituals etc use circle like symbols (think also of the svastika): the circle reassures that everything will be in the end as it was in the beginning.
     
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