Suicide discussion *warning may be triggering*

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by LightInTheDarkestNight, Jun 23, 2011.

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  1. LightInTheDarkestNight

    LightInTheDarkestNight Well-Known Member

    I know this forum is pro-life and all and personally I would never advocate for anyone to commit suicide. Suicide has so much taboo around it, people may label you a quitter or say that you've given up. Sometimes family or friends will even blame someone else for your suicide.

    You can never know how it feels to walk in another else's shoes so to speak we only truly know our own pain. You can use your imagination and knowledge or life experiences to try to understand another's but in many cases their suffering is unique to them, making it very hard you someone to understand. You may hate or being distraught at family member or loved ones choice to commit suicide but can we really judge them for it? .....We sure can but at the end of the day a judgment is merely an opinion.

    I totally get the argument that suicide is a permanent solution to temporary problem. Although what if your problems are permanent? It's much easier to have hope and faith for someone else when you're not in their shoes.

    Thomas Szasz made me think of this. When I was on his wikipedia page.

    The birth control analogy does make sense. We don't tell someone they can't bring a life into this world so what gives us the right to prevent someone from ending their own life? If someone fails they will often be locked up against their will in a hospital like their some nutcase. Personally I'm totally against involuntary hospitalization it is inhumane.

    You will never know the full context of why someone does what they do. This girl I was talking to three years ago told me if I worried as much as you I would have killed myself a long time ago. I do tend to be a worrier. This was when overall my situation was much better then it is now. I basically had most people I come in to contact with when I opened up screw me over in some way shape or form. It's so sad I actually sometimes laugh to myself about it. The fact that some people must hate and despise me so much to treat me the way they did, when in reality I'm just a normal guy who's looking to be happy.

    I'm curious about any comments or opinions from you guys.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 23, 2011
  2. soon2bforgotten

    soon2bforgotten Well-Known Member

    In the end it's really your own choice. People can try to help you but in my opinion noone has the right to try and force you to live if you truely don't desire to. Only exception is if you're are trying to take others with you.
  3. LightInTheDarkestNight

    LightInTheDarkestNight Well-Known Member

    Yeah murder suicide is wrong. Sort of like Chris Benoit, with his wife and son that's quite disgusting. People tried to blame that situation on him taking steroids in reality steroids had nothing to do with it.

    He had brain damage from wrestling, which they discovered after he was dead.
  4. chjones21

    chjones21 Well-Known Member

    Although what if your problems are permanent?

    But are problems permanent? Problems seem a matter of perspective. Facts are permanent. If a close relative has died, the fact is they are not coming back. How you feel about it is a matter of perspective and that is changeable. If your legs have been amputated, the fact is they are never going to grow back. How you feel about that is a matter of perspective and that is also always changeable.

    So I don't know, it seems to me that problems are not facts ... problems are a matter of perspective and perspective is changeable.

    One may have no money, as a fact. How one feels about that - or how one person to the next feels about that - varies enormously as a matter of perspective. One feels a failure and suicidal and enormously pressured, the other feels exhiliratedly challenged, the other feels justified in committing crimes to access money, another relies on friends and family, and another (a St. Francis of Assisi or whoever it might be) feels that that is absolutely the right way to be and to live and so on and so forth....

    Wasn't Nero incensed by the fact that the Christians thrown to the lions went into the Colosseum, calmly - sometimes laughing and singing in solidarity. Their perspective was clearly different from his!

    Problems sometimes are often created aswell from entrenched expectations.... and expectations can also change.
  5. bhawk

    bhawk Well-Known Member

    you say we have the choice to concieve, you need to remember even that right is shakey, only in the 60's americans were being dragged of and forcefully sterilised, in the UK winston churchill along with many others was advocating the sterilisation of the entire working class!
  6. LightInTheDarkestNight

    LightInTheDarkestNight Well-Known Member

    You do have some good insight on and make a good point.

    Problems in many ways are a matter of perspective. You having your legs or foot being Amputated is a fact. You're not going to change it. It's somewhat similar to the 12 step program you can't fix your problem until you admit it.

    Someone else having a problem is also a matter of perspective. You don't have insight into someone else's brain so in a way you're only guessing and judging off of very limited information. Let's say a guy has sex with a girl who is 17 and the age of consent is 18 in your state. This guy could be charged with a sexual offense even when the sex was consensual. One could label and judge him as being a "sexual abuser". But at the end of the day it's only a perspective, a judgment, or opinion. In another state the age of consent may be 16 and this would be totally legal.

    Your point on money is also interesting for some it could be seen as a challenge and others they may feel like a hopeless failure on the verge of suicide. Someone may even blame others for their financial problems.

    About the Christians before being fed to the lions maybe they were laughing and singing on the outside but on the inside they weren't happy at all. It's certainly possible it was their way of coping. It's also possible they also had faith they were going to heaven so in a way that relieved some of their sorrow.

    One's outlook on life is very important but the reality is in way were like puppets you can effect others reality by the way you treat them. You can manipulate others minds and control them sometimes even getting them to do horrible things.

    Let's say some criminals or gang members have a problem with you and they want you dead, this is a fact. How you're going to deal with it is a matter of perspective.

    Another example is you're Jewish and about to be killed in one of their death pits. Their problem is your problem. Putting it in another way their perspective is your problem.

    Somewhat off topic. Last night I was watching some stuff on the Nazi's and how they Murdered so many people in Death pits before they used the gas chambers. Near the end they talked about the Nuremburg trial. This one guy who had been sentenced to death(hanging) who was responsible for the deaths of 90,000 Jews. The prosecutor knew he had 5 children he was the only one of the Defendants he talked to after he had been sentenced. He said they both knew he was a dead man and do you know what he said when he asked if there was something he could do for him he only said "the Jews will suffer for my death".

    He was a pure psychopath to the very end, no sign of guilt or remorse. They blamed the Jewish people for their horrific crimes against humanity(victim blaming). It just goes to show how power corrupts, when you get surrounded by other psychopaths or sociopaths and you use out-group dehumanization. What they did makes you ashamed to be from the same species. These sickening types of things have happened more recently in other places such as Cambodia for example or even Rwanda. As the one prosecutor said it's not a German trait or isolated thing it's happened in many other places.

    Also when the Russians were closing in on Berlin this one guy stated it was estimated that in April and May of 1945, 100,000 people in and in the surrounding areas of Berlin committed suicide.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 25, 2011
  7. chjones21

    chjones21 Well-Known Member

    As the one prosecutor said it's not a German trait or isolated thing it's happened in many other places.

    It is exceptionally hard to be non-Conformist.

    Those people who stick to their principles and by doing so draw attention to themselves and refuse to adapt - regardless of what society expects of them are killed viz. Gandhi, Jesus of Nazareth, Thomas More, Martin Luther King, any number of people who would not go along with the Nazi regime in Germany and on and on.
    I don't in any way blame people for conforming to doing what they know is not right .... whether that means you are a Mexican citizen in Ciudad Juarez who is pushed into informing or killing or whatever at gunpoint or simply someone who won't stand up for a colleague in the right because of the risk of losing your job. We value our lives. In some ways those who are suicidal have less argument for not doing what they believe is right - as they are seemingly less concerned with losing their life - so they don't have that pressure weighing on them. As they don't have that worry, then in some ways the world is their oyster! They can give all their time, energy, effort, money to helping the poor or the disenfranchised --- they should have no fear! Of course, the opposite is more often the case --- and it is rather because they are filled with fear, with anxiety, with self-doubt and loathing, with lack of confidence that more often they can become entrenched, stagnating and unable to do even the simplest of things. Life is odd.
  8. ThornThatNeverHeals

    ThornThatNeverHeals Well-Known Member

    Suicide is one's choice. You decide to do it or you dont. NOBODY should be given the right to make you stay alive. I agree that forced hospitalizaion is inhumane, but i can see why they do it. i mean it scares me enough to keep me alive. Still hate it with a passion. We should be allowed to be given resources to kill ourselves if we wanted to... It frustrates me that if someone tries to do that then they are punished. Gah.
  9. Underground

    Underground Well-Known Member

    It's commonly accepted that people who are suicidal are not in their right frame of mind, and I agree, they're not, because the main human (animal) instinct is to survive and live on.. not kill yourself. Your physical body never wants to commit suicide, that's why you can't strangle yourself or drown yourself at will, but why you need assistance - i.e. people who drown themselves jump into freezing cold rivers, sometimes with the assistance of something heavy, so they can't reverse the decision. It's why people who hang themselves will often do it from somewhere high where they can't reverse their decision. You know the police often come across people who have hung themselves from trees where they've noticed signs of struggles where the person has obviously regretted it, i.e. their leg found on a higher branch.

    Also there are problems in life which do cause suicidal feelings and attempts, such as relationship/family breakdowns, deaths of family/friends, financial problems, homelessness, and while some are permanent (in the case of deaths) that doesn't mean the feelings are permanent. Most people in life accept that death is also a part of life.. everyone will one day have to cope with the loss of their parents, because as hard as it seems, that's the natural order of life, only a small minority of people actually get suicidal over this.. everyone goes through relationship breakdowns. I have a good friend who lost his friend to a drunk driver and went through a bad breakup with a girl he'd deluded himself into thinking he'd end up marrying (he was 16..), he attempted suicide by taking a massive overdose and has permanent heart damage from that, but despite that, 2 and a bit years on, he's moved on.. his life is happy. Maybe not all 'happily ever after' (he has C-PTSD) but he acknowledges he has a future now and he's accepted he at least has loving family and friends, especially his new girlfriend.

    So my point is, I don't think people (unless they're terminally ill or paralysed from the neck down and in constant pain) should have the 'right' to kill themselves because I believe their mindsets aren't healthy. Unfortunately, though, if you're that hellbent on killing yourself, you will probably end up succeeding and there's nothing realistically anything anyone can do - whether they are family, friends, doctors, psychiatrists, nurses, doctors, the police, etc. because once you die, there's no going back. But if you survive, I think they should take every measure possible to help you out of that mindset.

    I'm not sure about the USA, but here in the UK, it's very hard to get sectioned (involuntarily hospitalisation) as beds are reserved for people that are acutely psychotic or people that have made dangerous suicide attempts and show no sign of wanting help whilst their mind is in such a bad state. The professionals prefer to try helping you from your home and referring you to things like therapy, CBT, counselling, putting you on meds, etc.

    But no you shouldn't be "given resources to kill yourself if you want" - you should never involve other people in your suicide, that is not the job of your doctors or psychiatry, and is actually quite selfish. It's a different case if you're terminally ill and it would help end your suffering, but whilst there is a chance for your life to improve, then no.
  10. LightInTheDarkestNight

    LightInTheDarkestNight Well-Known Member

    You guys all make some interesting points.

    I agree CHjones in many ways it can be hard to be a non conformist and it can often lead to you being targeted for attacked. People conform all of the time to stuff they don't feel is right just because they go along with others around them.

    Somewhat relevant is this quote. Regarding Malignant egophrenia...

    Or that they didn't want to stand up because then they knew they'd be targeted themselves and they valued there own life too much, hellbent on their own survivable able to ignore the sufferings of others.

    Another example is people who went in anti war rally's against Iraq and what not and they ended up on the no fly lists which were reserved for terrorist. Even a guy who spoke out against George W Bush he wasn't even anti war ended up on the no fly list.

    Even with what is known as an in-group bias if you personally don't agree with something that the group is doing collectively you may keep your beliefs to yourself in order to avoid becoming the "black sheep" of the group. You sacrifice your own thoughts or beliefs to prevent from others turning on you, causing an issue, and potentially becoming an outcast yourself.

    Thorninyourside: Involuntary hospitalization is definitely inhumane especially when their are other options available such as outpatient, etc. Although if they suspect someone as a risk to themselves or others I can sort of see why they might take the rather be safe then sorry approach.

    I do believe one should have the right to die humanely and not in a taboo way that further stigmatizes someone with issues already. Similar to dignastas which has suicide does it for terminally ill people I think they used to do it for people with severe mental illnesses but that's too controversial so they stopped.

    Threxy: You're right the animal instinct is to survive, however the animal instinct is also to avoid pain and pursue or seek pleasure. If someone has too much sadness and pain in their life it is only natural that they become depressed. When one seeks pleasure too much they can often become an addict, as well as being an addict can be a way of avoiding pain.

    Back to my point about 100,000 people committing suicide in April and May of 1945 in the greater Berlin Area. The Germans were very cruel to the Russian POW's starving them and what not. Stalin was also know for being cruel in large it may have been in retaliation to all of the casualities about 9-10 million soldiers and another 13-14.5 Million people, the only Country that lost more people % wise was Poland with all of the Jewish people that were killed in the holocaust. My dad mentioned a quote of his when we were talking the other night.

    "Remember when you get into Germany, only the German unborn are innocent"

    The Russian Soldiers were known to rape and murder. Therefore given the horrible conditions in Berlin and the Russians were closing in. Their suicide was a natural response to avoid the current pain they're in and also avoid possible future pain and suffering.

    You do make some good points how it is human nature to survive. That's very unfortunate about your friend who has C-PTSD however he does have a loving family and a great girlfriend.

    It is too controversial for sanctioned suicide in our current society other then those terminally ill. The responsibility on those who determine if it's justified or not would be too great and there would be too much scrutiny. I'm not saying in some cases it may not be justified I'm just stating that's how society views it. It would be much too complex and stressful for those who had to deem who deserved to take their own life and who didn't.. The potential for lawsuits could be great as well.

    Even now if a loved one commits suicide and you can prove someone else's actions were responsible you can sue them. Obviously they need some substantial assets to make it worthwhile.

    Like you state if you're hellbent on killing yourself you'll find a way just as if someone else is hellbent on killing you sooner on later they'll probably get you.

    For example I was reading about this Hell's Angels informant in Quebec he ended up getting 3 million from the government over a few years(a payment plan). However he will have to live the rest of his life in fear and in hiding. Someone commented about it how it's suicide, another mentioned how no amount of money would be worth living the rest of your life looking over your shoulder. One guy even said he'd need every penny for a closet full of disguises lol...

    I remember watching a show on a informant for the police during the 90's gang war's. I think he was so stressed out about living the double life that he eventually took his own life in his garage. I'm sure you can use your imagination how he did it.

    Where there's a will there's a way.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 1, 2011
  11. ThornThatNeverHeals

    ThornThatNeverHeals Well-Known Member

    It happens, and scares the shit out of me. Especially when you are a minor and "cant make choices for yourself" (BULLSHIT!!!)

    If you dont want life, you shouldnt have to live it... i mean, why not make room for another person in the world who actually wants to live.... thats my though anyway, its like ur hospital beds, except... more.... drastic, i guess.
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