Suicide- Why is it not accepted?

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helena

Staff Alumni
#21
"Murder isn't illegal, depends on who you want to kill."
:blink:....are you sure about this???
Would some mod delete this post, is off topic, and I don't seem to be able to delete it myself:mad:
 
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#22
I think that if someone really wants to end his pain by killing himself, fine. But that won't stop me from trying to stop him. If I was standing infront of my parents holding a gun to my head, I would want them to tell me they don't want me to die. Otherwise, they're heartless. Unless they can give me a five page essay on why they specifically think I should pull the trigger.
 

tired82

Well-Known Member
#24
Society tells us that we have plenty to live for. It's even in the Declaration of Independence under "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness". It all sounds good in general, until you get into the details. You can make all the personal choices you want as long as society is okay with it.

I know I don't have it as bad as many people in the world - those in dangerous regions who die for no particular reason; those terminally ill; etc. But if society truely believe in liberty and purusing happiness, I should be able to make the decision about suicide. It's unreasonable for someone else to define happiness for me when I see suicide as a way of obtaining a happiness or release. It's not in me to find happiness through living life prescribed by someone else. People would say you don't know what will happen in the future, perhaps things will get better. Obviously, they won't tell you things will get worse. But both are possibilities, and I merely want to avoid enduring further bad things.

And I don't buy the arguement that my depression prevents me from making rational decisions. True, I've made bad to terrible decisions before, but that's a fact of life for everyone - "normal" or otherwise. I am certain that there are plenty of people with far more severe conditions than depression, who made a decision that has more significance than my suicidal thoughts. We may not for example be fortunate to enjoy Van Gogh's art had he been "normal".
 

Robald

Active Member
#25
People are complete assholes. They expect us to suffer for a lifetime so they don't have to miss us.
I like this. I often see things that way.

However, for empathy's sake I think it's important to understand that in most people's cases they don't act like this because they're trying to be assholes. They expect our suffering to be temporary, and for the expression of their wish for us to remain alive to be a factor in alleviating our pain.

A typical negative analysis of this situation will easily feed depression - that we our inevitably surrounded by people who cannot see our woes in the same light as ourselves.

If you wish to be positive, then the fact that other people will generally be able to provide an alternative viewpoint could be considered a blessing.

Ah, perspective.

I've got some much weirder thoughts on all of this but I don't know if I can get them out right now.
 

ace

Well-Known Member
#28
I just wanted to add it's unfair to compare one persons suffering with another,I think that's typical of the Mental health stigma down the years.People will say think of those who have it worse than you,I think thats a very unfair thing to say.Because a person with a mental condition looks so fine on the outside,the inside suffering isn't felt by the other unless they know the exact pain.

With Mental health conditions for e.g you don't see the effects it has on the person on the outside apart from them looking quite down,unmotivated,disinterested etc.But sadly all too often these signs get bypassed by others obviously they may not understand,and put it down very likely to the sufferer just may not be interested,want's to be left alone,doesn't want to be bothered etc.

I understand in saying a person who is suicidal etc isn't in the best frame of mind,but also taking into account the persons suffering that they've endured themselves for such a period of time.For e.g when I was in hospital earlier on this year this 71 yr old woman said to me she has Bi Polar,chronic fatigue syndrome and I'm not to sure what else and if there was something else.She said to me I've been like this for 33 years and she said whats the point of me living?this isn't a life it's better off being dead.I didn't know what to say to her she had pretty much been going through this pain from the day I was born so to speak.

What I'm basically trying to say is that a person doesn't know exactly the pain another suffers,I don't and have never told anyone to go ahead with suicide but have shared exactly what they're going through.So as I see it and as it stands we don't know anothers pain unless we have walked in their shoes,and by this we never obviously will walk in another persons shoes.I do repect each persons pain as they should respect yours,it is very difficult but as I said one persons pain is their own private hell.
 

Lovecraft

Well-Known Member
#29
Manson is a great artist. A satanic one. I've never herd this argument against love before.

You can't be taught love. You find love. Then how do you feel? That's it's value.
Rather irrelevant, but I'll indulge you.

I personally feel love is a genetically imbued emotion of desire that has survived evolution because it promotes procreation.

But really, as far as suicide goes, I could care less what people think. Should I take that path, they can no longer do anything to me ever again. Their scoffs or tears cannot hurt the dead.
 

MeAndYou

Well-Known Member
#30
Rather irrelevant, but I'll indulge you.

I personally feel love is a genetically imbued emotion of desire that has survived evolution because it promotes procreation.

But really, as far as suicide goes, I could care less what people think. Should I take that path, they can no longer do anything to me ever again. Their scoffs or tears cannot hurt the dead.
Well it seems to me (and im not trying to be depressing..just honest), that people are nice out of necessity. So i agree with you. Love is yet another instinct that drives us. I dont know. Sometimes it feels like my body and my mind are two very very separate things, my body being a vessel to experience what we are all experiencing, but in doing so, sacrificing what i grew up believing was real. Unconditional love. So maybe this life is more an asylum/institute to learn, but if we choose to take the exit down that corridor, no harm done. Maybe...
 

Raphael1

Well-Known Member
#31
I personally feel love is a genetically imbued emotion of desire that has survived evolution because it promotes procreation..
What if I love a song how does that relate to procreation? What if I actually enjoy life as an experience? What if I care more about things than just survival and consider myself more of a multi-dimensional being than a machine? Also, the theory of evolution is not very scientific. If love is just a desire why does it produce things which are entirely unselfish? Also can love be classified as a desire when it's actually a state of being that you attain and not necessarily making you want something. In fact love is the opposite, when something is fulfilled you get that feeling.


And if love is genetic. If emotion is genetic, I must have changed my genetics many times and also manipulated my emotions through my own decisions, so I must also manipulate my genetics. Which makes more sense seeing as consiousness is the one thing upholding our reality as we experience it.

According to the theory of evolution suicidal tenancies shouldn't survive as they don't promote procreation. So why do over 100 people on this site, and much more each year have a suicide plan. Why is suicide increasing in our society. If evolution created love because it was for procreation then why would it also create depression which is for death. As you can see it doesn't make a lot of sense to make love into something purely mechanical such as a freak accident of some process from random chance. Evolution requires a first cause. A cause cannot create itself if it was first. Hence Evolution admits infinity. Infinity then defeats the theory of evolution because infinite possibility of causes then exist.
 
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$MyName

Well-Known Member
#32
Something I've thought for awhile is that suicide really does get a bad rap. Why is it wrong for someone to end their life if the truely don't want to live anymore? I know it's suicide is not to be taken lighty, I can understand a lot of people do it too quick, or over things they probably shouldn't, but there are genuinely people who really just want to die and have had enough of life and have problems they can't get past.

I really don't see what's so wrong with that at all - I think it's something to think about a lot before acting on it at all and not to take it lightly but if it's been many years and you've tried your best to fix things, to get help or to move past your problems then I think you should be allowed to go on with it without people stopping you.
 

Raphael1

Well-Known Member
#33
Why is it wrong for someone to end their life if the truely don't want to live anymore?
If they admit you have a right to die. Then we would be allowed to assist each other with suicide. Murder would no longer be what it is. The insecure world of the international bankers would also fall down like a house of cards whenever some philosophy enters that does not include consumerism. Therefore you are not defined as a human being but a corporation with certain rights as stated by the definition on which your birth certificate is made.You are not defined as human according to the law under which you submit. Therefore do not expect to have a human experience under that law. Therefore do not expect to have the right to die legally. Deep down you know why this has happened and it has to do with materialism.
 
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JohnADreams

Well-Known Member
#34
Or maybe no one is keen on the idea of family members killing themselves, since it is even harder to protect a family member from themselves than all the psychopaths out there. There's no one to punish, no justice or closure. The fact that it can also lead to other friends and family members wanting to attempt suicide or just living with emotional scaring for the rest of their life, only adds to the bias against the act.

I don't know. Maybe it's just better to try and help others and prevent them from hurting themselves, than to let all of them destroy themselves out of respect to the small percentage of suicidal people that are legitimately beyond help.
 

Robald

Active Member
#35
I have wondered a great deal about the 'evolutionary function of depression'.

Reading this thread I have perhaps started to understand the concept a little more. In order to understand something in evolutionary terms, it is important to consider how certain traits affect the species as a whole rather than simply the individuals that display them.

I am seriously depressed and it is making me a highly undesirable choice of mating partner. This seemed at first to be a completely nonsensical response to my circumstances. It was essentially a frustrated attempt to mate which plunged me into this depression. What could possibly be the purpose of a reaction which would make it even less likely for me to reproduce in the future?

Natural selection has an inherent flipside - let's call it "natural deselection". In order for a species to evolve effectively, there must be not only some individuals who reproduce but also some who don't. In a situation where all specimens reproduce there are two potential pitfalls: firstly a population explosion whereby material requirements will exceed available resources, and secondly the genetic development of the species 'losing direction' as survival of the fittest becomes supplanted by survival of everyone.

It could be argued that modern society has fulfilled both of these possibilities. Observe how many humans now walk the globe. See how many people exist and even procreate with the assistance of modern medicine and social care, who even a few generations ago would have been doomed to a short and frustrating life.

Nature, however, is ever resourceful. I am starting to believe that depression is a balancing force in all of this. An answer to excessive and unmoderated procreation. As there are no predators left to pick off the weaker members of our herd.. and our laws and customs largely prevent us from turning on each other.. so we must cull ourselves on the level of the individual.

Suicide is just the logical conclusion of this process. Depression that doesn't reach as far as suicide still reduces this potential for reproduction, therefore fulfilling its purpose to a degree.

This post is getting rather long and I don't want to sit here typing all day, getting further and further off topic. I'd just like to mention two further thoughts which have occurred to me. Firstly that the expression of depression and suicide in males and females seems to show important differences which could be interpreted with further development of the ideas I've mentioned above. Secondly that - although when I talk about reproduction and procreation I am focusing on the sexual and genetic sense, literally conceiving children - I believe that many of these ideas apply equally to ideas, mimetic evolution if you like. Genetic and mimetic evolution are simultaneously distinct, related and inseparable.

Ok, enough ranting for now.
 

Raphael1

Well-Known Member
#36
I am starting to believe that depression is a balancing force in all of this. An answer to excessive and unmoderated procreation.
Depression is not enjoyable I would call it unbalanced. I wouldn't say it's enforced upon us to create balance. Amusing how we supposedly feel love because evolution promotes procreation and then we feel depressed when it decides procreation needs to stop. Clearly it's us that is responsible for things changing rather than some idea of something obscure and undefinable controlling us.

So instead of making evolution responsible for everything perhaps if we took responsibility for ourself. Things would make more sense that way.

For instance I'm not depressed because something outside me didn't want me to pro-create. I just got myself depressed. Simple. Is anyone here depressed because they shouldn't pro-create? It's absurd if you think about it clearly. It's just self responsibility for ourself and not blaming other things like evolution as if it wasn't our responsibility to deal with life. If you say life is evolutions responsibility maybe you can sit back and let evolution live your entire life for you. But once you sit back and try do that. You realize evolution is just a fantasy in your head about something. That it's actually you all along living your life. You're in love and you're depressed, and you're this and you're that, because you have been living your life. Not from some obscure untouchable process controlling you.

People who blame evolution, it's really silly come on....Take responsibility for yourself.
 
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