Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by Viktor, Jul 24, 2014.

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  1. Viktor

    Viktor Well-Known Member

    Now i wonder if someone will be brave enough and will read this wall of text to the end :)

    Not sure if this is right section for this topic, but i didn't find better section, so i'm posting it here.

    I would now like to write about something that is here with us every day and night and something in which we are bathing every day and night and it's also something which human mind somehow doesn't want to work with as a possible issue, because of how much common it became in our lives over a centuries. It's the world's system. What do i actually mean by that? Well, the world as we know it. Exclude nature from it however. That has nothing to do with it. The world's system is based on a single thing and that is "you'll do something for me and i'll give you something for it". In other words, working. From this all other parts of the system exists. Like economy, business, laws, politics and <insert more stuff like that here>. How noble does it sound today, when you say job or working, huh? I mean person that works people consider as a strong person that does something for himself and the one that doesn't, may be considered as lazy or like my father says, garbage in the society. But let's think about it more and see how noble the working is. And i mean working as a job. So for example. We all know about global warming right? Why the Earth is getting warmer? Because we are letting thousands of tuns of CO2 (carbon dioxide) into the atmosphere per year. This creating so called greenhouse effect on the planet. It means, the heat we are getting from the sun is being trapped on the planet by the atmosphere and so we can actually have heat. Without greenhouse effect, we would freeze. So the greenhouse effect is good, but not if there is too much of it. Look at the planet Venus. Temperatures there are around 500°C (932°F). Not because of the Venus is closer to the sun but because it has lots of CO2 in its atmosphere. So much that the ground is invisible from the space. A billions of years ago, Venus probably used to be like our planet Earth. Lots of nature, water and probably life. But volcanos let a lot of CO2 into the atmosphere and changed the planet into complete hell. Extreme temperatures, ground full of lava and sulphuric acid in the air. The CO2 covered sky of the Venus and made the greenhouse effect so strong, that the heat from the sun simply doesn't go away. If you'd stand there, you would be consumed by Venus's atmosphere in a few seconds. The same fate can happen to our Earth if we'll keep up the "good work" as we are doing now. The hell on Venus might have been caused by volcanos, but it's scientifically proven that increasing CO2 in our atmosphere is caused by us. We are letting CO2 into the atmosphere from our car's exhausts, smokestacks of factories. There is also scientifically proven that 19th century was colder. By the rate of how fast the planet is getting warmer, maybe after couple of hundreds of years, you wouldn't want to be here anymore. Or another example. Do you like animals? If you do, did you ever buy coat made of fur? Do you understand that animals are being killed because of fur so that someone can do business and sell you the coat so that you can look cool? Or animals on mass farms. Of course we need to eat, but did you eve think about that those animals was born there to only wait till they die? What kind of life is that? You think it's fair and ok? Animals in the wild is a different story. Every animal in wild has freedom and that means the chance of surviving and living. Not like animals in mass farms, however. They are only waiting in horrible circumstances for the day to die and they cannot choose any other life. Does it look like i'm off topic now? Talking about global warming and mass farms. Why do we have cars and facilities? Because someone wants to make business. They want to sell you a heat, gas, electricity. They want to sell you cars. And so that you can make living yourself, you often need a car. And by whatever job you do, even if you don't use car at all, you are actually supporting other people or companies letting CO2 into the atmosphere. Because already if you are working, you are making economy. You will buy something for the money you made, right? That means you are making living for someone else. That someone else need gas, electricity, heat (including you) for their homes and you are giving money to someone who can then buy the car. And how about this? This example is even more sad. What if someone have some rare sickness or something and needs some surgery that is extremely expensive? You surely seen such cases in news, right? Family crying that their child is dying and need surgery for which they doesn't have money. Then what happens? People talk about how terrible it is that they doesn't have the money and so they start donating. That is nice of course. But what i don't understand is that their thoughts doesn't go any further. They stop with the thought that it's terrible that the family doesn't have money for surgery. And based on that they start donating. But that's all. Why? Why it isn't so obvious for anyone? Why the family must pay so much money at all so that their child may live? So if they wouldn't get the money for it, their child would die? And how many people died already because they didn't have money? You think people always donate them? They donate only to those who they see in news. But there are much more people that aren't seen by public like that and need money for surgery. And they may simply die because they don't have money. Does this sound ok to you? Well, of course, you may say, but doctors also need money for living. The what they do is their job. They need to eat too. Well, thats why it's called system. Because things can't work without other things. If you simply removed the fact that you need money for surgery that could save your life and stuff like that would be for free, then doctors wouldn't be able to make living from their job. It's all in the basics of the system that is built on "you do something for me and i'll give you something for it". To fix that, this basic part would have to be removed. It is messed up fact that you probably can't do anything about it. But, i just can't understand how people can be ok with this? Seeing someone die, because he/she has no money? And all that people think about is that it's bad that the person doesn't have money for saving himself. This is so visibly terrible, but people can't see that you shouldn't need money for staying alive.
    And now why i'm making this topic in this section? People you might be surprised how much your depression can be caused because of the world's system. Even if you know it's something else that causing it or maybe even if there is no cause that causing it. Feeling lonely? Have no friends? No love? It is hard for you to make friendship or relationship? Look at the world. People are busy. They are working. They don't have time. And if they have time, their minds are somewhere else. They are looking into tablets, iPhones, smartphones all the time and doesn't look what is going on around them. These devices was again made by people who is working. They want to sell you all this stuff to make money. Or people are busy with many other stuff or different type of fun, etc... which are here again because someone wants to make business. So tell me again, how much noble it is when you are working? How does it make you better than the person that does not working? And how this is freedom? People think we have freedom, but really? Show me that freedom. Because if i will not work, i'm dead. Literally. I will not be able to buy food and i'll die. So i am forced to do something and if i will not do it, i have no right to be even alive. Another possible cause of depression. You are concerned about your life. You have no work and you are afraid what will happen with you and if you have work, you are maybe not satisfied with it and stuff like that. People are depressed from many reasons, but i think the main source of it is because people are concerned all the time about something. Their heads are busy all the time. Something is still going on. Something bad may happen if i won't do this or that, or something i need to happen may not happen if i won't do this or if someone else won't do this and we could go on and on and on. Then i believe that even the depression that seems to be without a cause actually has cause. And that is the system. But people only don't see this cause because system is something we are living it every minute and it's the most common thing in the world. System is all about money. You can't have even love without money, damn it. You can't invite a girl to drink without money or cinema or romantic vocation. And i'm not even talking about having children with the person you love. Having children is expansive. Do you see the sense of this sentence? Having children is expansive. What the f*ck? Expensive having children? Do you see what i mean here? Everything is about money. This is so sad society. You are born and it's already business for someone because you need to eat and stuff. So that the money doesn't belong to love is bullsh*t. Everything is about money. And if i don't have money, i have no right to be happy. Because no girl will want me, i will basically be always alone. I will always struggle in life and will be outsider in the society. People are full of the bullsh*t like "get your self together and do something" or this is even better "you are the maker of your life and however you life depends on you". This is so much not true. Not always at least. But people don't know a sh*t what they are talking about, when they says such things. Everyone's so blind. Then someone will tell you that this is a life? No way people. This is no life. This is system. It's not natural. It's built by people. And everything that is not natural can't be called life. It's only that people doesn't want to see beyond the system. They are so sucked on it that their brains refuses to work with the information that life is something more than the system. It's really funny to watch reactions of people when i explain all this to someone. It's like they don't know what to say. Their brain stopped. They can't work with informations that goes beyond the system. So the only stupid think they are able to come up with is that they will tell you "don't think about such things, because you can't do anything about it anyway". Yea, how easy. And world and life continues to go to sh*t. Well, of course. If i will be just talking about it and basically if i will be the only one who sees all those facts, then nothing will probably change. But the system is made by people, then by money. But first by people. If majority of people on the world would decide that the system sucks, well... Something would change. But everyone, even those that aren't happy with the system says "it's silly to think about such things", so that means nothing will every change. And actually why would people want anything to change. Selling gas, electricity, cars and everything else makes business and money, right? Why would these people want anything to change when their business is making them rich? Everyone cares about money only. And to be honest, i am tired of working. Not because i'm lazy, but because i experienced a lot. I experienced how employers behaves to employees. When you go to interview for job, how the employer wants you to be flexible (read between lines -> i want you to work non-stop and for free), how they seek a reason to fire you. How they are making it purposefully harder for you so that you want to leave yourself so that they don't have to pay you money when they would fire you, how much the employer doesn't give a single sh*t about you and the only thing he cares for is how much you are still needed in their company in terms of making money for them. How they fire you for completely ridiculous reason and how they don't care that you will have no job and that you are screwed. They don't care because they are fine. They have job for which they are getting lots of money, so why care? And many many other stuff like that. I am simply tired.

    However stupid it sound, whatever job you do, you are supporting the system and by supporting the system you are indirectly supporting the destruction of human kind in many forms (the global warming was just one of the examples), you are supporting that people will care less and less for each other, you are supporting that making friends is harder and harder, you are supporting that having love and children is harder and harder and thus you are supporting that you people have more and more psychical problems like depressions and thus you are supporting suicides. Unless people opens their eyes, it will be only worse. Worse for people's psychic as well as for Earth. And one day the Earth will tell us how much she doesn't like our life style. Too bad i probably won't be here anymore to see that. Or maybe luckily.

    That is why i love astronomy and nature. Because it's truly natural. About that you can say that's life. And i love universe because it's something we don't have any control over it. There are many things in the universe that could erase us from the space in the second. And if something like that would come, we wouldn't be able to do anything about. And i like to know it's true.

    And this was just short version of what i can say about this subject. But it took me more than two hours already to write this.
  2. normaljoe

    normaljoe Well-Known Member

    I think this should have been posted in the Soap Box forum. :D
  3. Viktor

    Viktor Well-Known Member

    Yea, maybe it would fit there better. So any mod feel free to move this thread there, if you believe it would be better.

    Although this is about depression also if you did read to the end, but anyways...
  4. normaljoe

    normaljoe Well-Known Member

    I personally don't agree with the "system", because I have job and yet I volunteer to help people. I also donate to charity. the first day I moved to Oak Harbor I volunteered for Habitat for Humanity and I am continuing that. I really enjoy helping people. it makes me feel better and I feel less depressed when I do it. other than that I am a functionally depressed. I understand what you mean but the whole money thing. and feeling like an outsider. I don't think people see children as "expensive" because they are a drag on them financially but that they can not support them. and who would want to have a child they can not support? what kind of life would that be for a kid?. other than that I am still sorting through your post. give me a bit lol
  5. Viktor

    Viktor Well-Known Member

    I don't expect someone fully understand what i'm trying to tell here. As i said, people's mind can usually hardly work with it. Not maybe because people aren't smart and i am smarter, so i can understand it. But simply because their mind does not work with it. Not even you now could see it and explained only a one of the small parts of the system. If you can't afford financially children, don't have one. As you said, he would have hard life. But it doesn't stop here. If you'll go deeper as i explained, you will find that it's all extremely sad and wrong. You shouldn't need money to have children in the first place. However it's not possible, that's a different story. That is why it's called system as i said. You can't remove just one thing without destroying other. You'd need to remove whole the system.
  6. Adam

    Adam SF Supporter

    Since you took the time to write something so extensive I will do the same. But it is probably not pleasant reading. I ask you some questions they are highlighted in bold.


    You seem to think we are outside nature in a way. But we are nature. Work is just the new equivalent of hunting the savannah. Hunting is work, it is tiring and taxing and hard, but it gets you food. The modern day is no different. Just our hunts are ultimately rather dull and monotonous in many cases. Something many people would rather not do but they got to eat just like the wild beasts. The savannah does not have Tax though or welfare for that matter. So if you don't hunt you starve and die. Nature does not give a shit and nor does modern society. It is a societal construct only to apply various values to work. One thing though is all nature survives and lives at the expense of other life. Humans do the same, the wholesale slaughter of animals is necessary to feed our current population. What many of the animal rights activists don't grasp is that to have humane farming methods would condemn a lot of the world into some pretty severe starvation. Often they demonstrate little grasp of just how much land is required for more humane methods. They often don't at all grasp the entire world is not made up of the western culture or has the same luxury to pick and choose. Is it fair on animals? No, not at all. But what actually is fair about any of it? What in nature is fair? What in life is actually fair? The more I encounter the word fair the more I realise what a pointless and empty word it is. Life has never been fair in our entire history. The utopian world people waste their energy pining for does not exist. Nor can it in our global idiocy. Our tribalistic factions are just too entrenched. No, all we have is short sighted instant gratification and self interest at the expense of the future and tribes outside ones own. Suffering though is built into existence. Life ultimately owes you nothing, not even a job and in some countries not even food.

    Here is something you will possibly regret reading. The rest of the site is pretty awesome.

    Global warming.

    I used to educate people on Global warming, you know with that rare thing facts, evidence, peer reviewed studies. But it has got to the point of pointlessness. This link is for any denialists out there because I can't be bothered with your points that have been refuted a thousand times. It is also for those interested in grasping the enormity of it all.

    People actually become hostile to you and science in general. Apparently I am a paid for shill. Lol I wish, I wouldn't be so broke then. Does peoples work contribute to global warming, yes absolutely.

    Are we on a path to cooking ourselves. Pretty much. It is actually worse than that. There is a tipping point where a positive feedback loop can occur. It wouldn't matter if all our emissions stopped at that point. Even if the bottom line focused people suddenly realised being cooked is not very profitable. Venus will be a forgone conclusion especially if the idiotic legislation and the results of various recent summits are anything to go by.

    Money is Evilz I

    This sentiment seems to be running through your post. But a version of measuring value has near enough always existed. Cocoa beans at one point were used as currency by many mesoamerican people. All the same unfairnesses existed within their civilisation as well. Hierarchies and the haves and have nots. Even counterfeit beans. That is just one example.

    "you do something for me and i'll give you something for it".* Ever watched a documentary on gibbons? Gibbons will scratch one another's backs. But only if the other gibbon does the same. If the gibbon does not do the same it gets ignored. Reciprocal agreement is natural. Money is just a more complex extension of that. The real issue is not money itself but the ethics of money and how it is used and how it has become the most ridiculous commodity unto itself, a sort of confidence trick and pyramid scheme of utter fucking insanity! I can't even be polite about it. Infinite growth vs finite energy is frankly insane and the magical free markets does not exist. Nor does trickle down theory which should be called trickle down lies. The shit is absolutely going to hit the fan, it is inevitable. Broke countries loaning to broke countries who in turn loan to broke countries... History shows all fiat currency fails with grim regularity and consequence. The fiction and mess we as a species have woven and ascribe to with economics is terrifying to even consider too deeply on. Children born after us will be significantly worse off if various statistics can be believed. I can only see the fatal flaws. The zero sum game demands its victims. Damn do we have victims and more victims to come.

    This is a potent awareness you have there. Many depressed people I have spoken with are depressed for societal reasons. A transgered person comfortable with themselves but mauled by society. The engineer who winds up unemployed and on welfare, vilified for just existing like a scrounger when he has worked solid for 40 years. I would say we are in a state of terrible psychological warfare. So deep and pervasive now we have 11 year olds killing themselves over the 11 plus test. As doing badly means living in a cardboard box, if the parents are to be believed. Young Teen anorexia has grown severely and encompasses many more male teens now. We have thongs for twelve year olds with cherries on them, play boy stationary marketed at kids and pole dancing kits. On top of that is the 'dream' Work hard and have the life you want. But the days of living wages for many is over. Even getting on the housing ladder and out of your mothers basement before 30 now is damn hard. Bullshit economics of a rigged game and housing monopolies to blame, not generally laziness. Future generations are also up against being replaced by technology. Some of that can be seen now, self serve isle's in supermarkets. Apps that automate everything and drones ready to deliver steaming pizza to your door. Then there is the toxic rot of banal media. Cartoons that glorify in stupidity and cruelty. TV shows where setting your junk on fire gets top ratings. Celebrities born out of being utterly stupid on reality shows. Gluttony on the misery of others, ghoulish shows that look for upset and pain or seek to humiliate in the name of entertainment. Documentaries that are entirely fabricated to be more interesting.

    The negative stream and out right assault on esteem is intense. 'Buy this product and cease to be fat ugly and stupid.' 'You too can get the girls, just spray this on.' 'You are nothing with out this product.' THIS IS THE LATEST THING BUY NOW OR BE A LOSER!' Just an endless toxic diatribe. Then there is the news, or as I call it sensationalist bullshit that out rights distorts reality, misrepresents what science says or further stokes the fire of bigotry. Journalistic standards long gone, a media monopoly driven by ideological stances. All that is left mostly is fear mongering, breeding fear to the point people can't even differentiate apart A Muslim from a terrorist. Guess all Christian's are in the Ku Klux Klan.

    We do not have freedom we have privileges that can be revoked at any time. I am pretty much resigned to us all being in truth free range cattle. We just have a better farm to graze on than most, as evidenced by you being able to type all this in the first place.

    Money is Evilz II

    What alternative would you propose?

    By the way I am a greedy bastard, what alternative would you propose to deal with greedy ass holes like me that want more at the expense of every one else and realise force is the trump card? (This question is a trap, so answer carefully. ;) )

    There is no such thing as unnatural. Not even cannibalism, it happens with animals and we are animals. Rampant death violence and things being unfair and cruel goes on all the time even in the wilds of nature. Do other animals torture other animals, yes. Go look into Dolphins... Do they go to war with one another. Yes. Packs of lions territorial disputes and outright infanticide of a rivals cubs. Do they slaughter those that don't fit in or drive them into exile? Yes. Runts are ostracised and essentially bullied or abandoned. Are trees any more peaceful. No, sped up they engage in war with one another, trying to starve the rival out of resources. Are there lonely in love animals in the wild constantly rejected. Yep, you maybe did not add enough shinies to your nest, or that dance was not quite as good as the other competitors. Or you don't exude a strong enough musk. It is fascinating to me how our courting practices are so very similar.

    Life is competition made up of packs, hierarchies and territories. Sound familiar? There is nothing peaceful or utopian about that sadly. Why do you think the human species is so utterly brutal? Why is all our entertainment near enough focused on violence?

    The issue is the word IF and Majority. This displays a very western biased mentality that twists many into painful knots at how much the world sucks. I am right with you there buddy, I see it as clearly as you do. Right now there are people that want you and I dead. Because we are not of their ideology. I am not talking terrorists, entire countries you likely have never heard of. How will you bring them into your utopian dream of a better system? How will you convince those that benefit from this rigged system? The reason it is impossible is not because I am stupid or defeatist. It is because mankind has never in its entire history united. Geopolitics is all purely self serving. Every positive thing, like human rights, mutually beneficial trade agreements, health care and social safety nets. Came from outright atrocities. We are at that stage when the youth don't even know why D day is even celebrated.

    But the crux of the matter is simply this.

    Basically if there is a ideology that has as its core a belief that Rhino's do not exist. It does not matter if you fly out to Kenya and get a rhino and release it at their dinner function. Even if this rhino should go on a rampage and sit on one of them. Causing that persons bones to turn to powder by an annoyed Rhino. That crushed person will say with their last raspy dying breath. “Oh my, gravity is rather heavy today.” Their head Stone will read, “I was not killed by a Rhino.”

    Since I have been banned from anti vaccine sites because I dared to refute their ridiculous claims with evidence. I have come to the conclusion that some people cannot be changed even if their stupidity may kill their children and put others at risk who are immunodeficient. When evidence and explanation fails what else is there? The same goes for global warming. Did you know I have had death threats from simply pointing out the difference between weather and climate. The counter response is further idiocy like this.

    We are in the age of glorified stupidity and psychopathy. “Greed is good.” “if you were truly suicidal you would have done It already.” Bullying and trolling have become an almost sport. Then we wonder why being alive feels like living in a state of chronic hell as the competition gets fierce. Compassion is weakness in some circles. I have no solutions at this point. I have sat with politicians discussing legislation that was wrecking my clients. Nothing will kill your hope in a better tomorrow faster... I have been at conferences on various issues. Met fascinating people. Ultimately though Ideology is often fatally stubborn regardless of what logic you assault it with. Critical thinking feels all but dead. It certainly is not taught in schools. If the TV and Media empire and facebook memes become the teachers of the youth my sense of being doomed grows. I am left solely with a sense of rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. I know I am not alone in that feeling. I personally am all right with humanity becoming an evolutionary dead end, killed by its own stupidity. But that is my own selfishness of having no kids and work related burn out talking. This is not a country I want to get old in.

    I have nothing positive to add. I kinda wish I did. But perhaps this discourse will prove interesting.

    A closing link.
  7. Viktor

    Viktor Well-Known Member

    You are saying that it won't be pleasant read, but you agree with me in about 80% of stuff and so do i agree with you. Well, with some parts i do really not agree.

    What you say that is unfair is just the part of the system. As working is part of the system, same as animal slaughtering. And i said that any part of the system can't be called life. You say it's natural, but it's not. On the other hand, animals in wild that need to hunt other animals, that is natural and that is fair. Because in the wild everyone has chance for surviving. Everyone understand that we need to eat, but mass farms where animals like pigs are born just to spend entire life on 1 square meter for just to die in the end, which is all of the purpose the animal was born for is not not right and it's not fair. In the wild life, everyone has chance for survival, while animals in mass farm, has no chance. This can't be called life or natural. This is part of the system which we developed, just so we don't have to move our butts and go hunt. But yea, that wouldn't be modern society anymore, right? And about that animal slaughtering that you call normal. I said, there are people that are slaughtering animals just for fur. No offense, but which dumbass would call that right? They are even skinning them alive. What right humans have to take their fur, just so that some rich bitch can buy it, so that she can look cool. It's sick. Go search for videos on youtube where Raccoon dogs are being skinned alive in china for popular fur brand. I'm not posting such video here, because it's extremely shocking. I watched it once, and it ensured me double-depressions for a week. Now tell me what's ok on that? Even if they wouldn't skinning the alive but after death, it's still not ok and not natural. Don't tell me that working (and i'm talking about job, so make no mistake) is right as we know it today, because it all supports the economy which supports such things as animal abusing. We are living in the world of dreams, where people are too dumb to see deeper into how we built the world and they see what is only around them. So for most people in the world, working is normal and thus the system is normal and even good.

    And please, do not compare animals behavior to our behavior. Animals lives by instinct. We are much smarter than them and we can realize much better what is wrong and what is right and how to make things different. We are built from atoms same as animals, but we are not the same. We are smarter and thus there is no excuse for us to abuse animals, etc...

    This is a question that everyone gives me when i talk about that the system is bad. The answer is i don't know. The system is so much sucked into our everyday living that if you would just shot it down, there would be chaos, people would starve and those who would survive would return to stone age. But it's irony, because people would start like each other more as they would finally had time for each other. But how would i make some different system, so that everything is ok? I don't know. I think it would be possible, but you would have to sit and think for a long time and you would have to free your mind from the today's thinking standards. Because your mind would keep coming up with ideas that are just part of the system we have today. But what i am absolutely certain about is that the system we have today is wrong. It makes living too much about money, it slaughters animals for no serious reason and if there is serious reason like food, we do it the unfair and unnatural way. We were so lucky that our planet gave us such a beautiful place to live and we behave like shit to the nature and to our planet. And people will pay for that one day. It's funny how some people think about how it will look like when our sun run out of its fuel and will start bloating itself and consume the Earth. But nobody will live to see that, because human kind will be long gone already.

    Me? I can't convince anyone. As i said, people will be convinced by their own behavior one day. Sure that those who has lots of money, can only benefit from the system. Nobody will be convinced until majority of people will be convinced or until something bad will happen.

    I did read your post about 4 days ago and i don't remember now everything you said there, but the rest i remember i agreed.

    I analyze things because i'm aware of things. I've read somewhere some quote of some i think important and smart and perhaps dead person (don't remember who know), who said that intelligent people doubt things while the stupid people are full of confidence and see things positive all the time. I'm not trying to say that i'm somehow smart, but there is some truth on that quote. Those that aren't much intelligent doesn't think about stuff, means they don't mind some bad stuff that are happening around them either and that means that it's much easier for them to stay positive all the time. While the intelligent ones thinks about everything and doubt things, which can bring them depressions much easier because they simply see the bad things in stuff because actually, there are bad things.
    I do see positive if i have reason for it. Last years, i don't have many reasons for it. I have no friends, no love, no job, i see how i'm running out of money all the time. When i get job, then stuff like behavior of the employer to you starts pissing me off. And i know a lot about it because i've been through a lot if it comes for working. I practically hate business now. Because it makes people look so stupid. You see those stupid advertising everywhere where the company makes you stupid by lying to you where they say how they are the best in the world and how they are trying to treat you as your best friend, but only so that you can give them money, because actually money is all that is friend for them. And then when you go work to that company, it sometimes almost looks like they want you to work 24/7 and for free and you need to lie to the customers too and telling them how best your company is even though it's sometime so clear that it's not true, so you need to play stupid before people. And if the employer will see you are becoming expendable, they simply get rid of you and they don't care that you will be jobless and struggle for life, only because someone must have been asshole and fire you. As all that became very common in the world, i simply started realizing how much sad it all is and it started to have effect on me, because there is nothing positive on it. Business is the world where people don't care for others as humans. They see only money. And sadly the whole system is built on it.

    To overcome my problems in life, i'm trying to not be alone. Since that is the main problem for me. But i still don't have many friends and i miss love. But no girl wants me, because i have no job. So i'm trying to find job, but can't get one because i'm being rejected all the time or employers behaves like shit. And i can't be that type of person that says that i have no choice but to stay in the job even if they behave to me like shit, only because i need money for living. Then i would lose the rest of the freedom i feel like i have in this world. But it on the other hand makes me struggle and sad.
  8. Hatshepsut

    Hatshepsut Guest

    You are quite correct. Since people must produce their food collectively using brains more than physical ability, and since people tend to have long lifespans lived out in intimate groups, their system is based on long-term reciprocal obligation and exchange. In the money economy, a relatively recent invention, people no longer know each other personally, so, impersonal means of determining who will or will not be granted exchanges--i.e. who is "deserving"--must be invented alongside the gold coins.

    This system is not at all ideal, nor is there any guarantee it will survive.

    Society is not a person, not an organism, and doesn't think, plan, or have foresight. Therefore, if it is on a political and economic track to ultimate destruction, there's really nothing to be done about it. If the earth turns into another Venus, or if another asteroid slams into us like happened in the dinosaur days, there's probably naught to be done about that, either. Eliminating artificial CO2 emissions would require decommissioning the entire industrial system and reverting to an economy based on primitive agriculture. This isn't possible anymore, so we're stuck with whatever fate or consequence attends the "decision" to industrialize.

    But social change is brought into effect sometimes, by people who care.

    Be one of them. :)
  9. Viktor

    Viktor Well-Known Member

    I would welcome if the system wase gone. People in primitive age was taking care of each other, loved each and stayed together much more than today. People was truly free.
  10. Aquarius123

    Aquarius123 Well-Known Member

    The way I understand our earthly existence is that true trust and faith in ourselves, our life and the Universe can only grow in anyone through first hand experiences, like the one that is now before us. To enable us to learn to trust, when we try one door and it will not open for us, no matter how hard we try, when things seem to be going wrong, as they sometimes will, it is worth our while to reflect and have a bit of a dialogue with ourselves; something like this: ‘Let me see, this door is obviously not meant for me, maybe the Universe has something else for me in mind. So, I’ll be patient and wait for another opening, for come it will. Are things really going wrong in my life or is the Universe trying to give me a message that I need a change of direction?

    ‘Could this be happening for my own good and because the Universe loves me and knows my true wants and needs better than I do? Could it be protecting me against myself, because it wants me to find what is rightfully mine? Is it possible that something better is in store for me, something I might not have imagined even in my wildest dreams? Perhaps it would be better if I waited patiently for a while; maybe another chance will then come my way. Now, isn’t that better than despairing or even swearing at the Universe because it does not seem to wish to fulfil my wishes? Because I am your child, Universe, let me try the loving way instead. Alright, here I go! I love you and trust you, as you love and trust me. After all, that makes an awful lot of sense, you know!’

    And when funds are low and debts are high, I need to ask myself: ‘Why am I not taking part in the Universe’s abundance? Is it because I am not sharing my own abundance with it, my gifts and talents, of which we all have many, with those around me? How can I increase my input into life, so that I can get more out of it? Do I need to be less selfish and think more about the good of the whole of society, life, the planet and the Universe? Why don’t I try and see what happens?’

    From Don’t Quit!

    * * *
  11. meaningless-vessel

    meaningless-vessel Well-Known Member

    I am more leaning towards Adam's stance on this.

    We have evolved as a species, developing at a much faster rate more recently. The advent of technology and faster techniques to cope with the demands of populations requiring food - means that there are going to be ways that seem more barbaric and brutal. But the cold hard truth is - without it, how many of us would fall by the wayside?
    I'm yet to fathom where the true difference is between raising animals for slaughter and hunting animals for food though. It's still cruel, but one is a more advanced set up in order to accommodate an ever increasing population. Doesn't make it unnatural. Put that into another perspective - how about the animal food chain - with something like the Lions as human defined "kings of the jungle" - do they care about the animals they eat to survive? I wouldn't think so. They'd be leaning towards "I need to eat to survive - let me find something to eat". They hunt in the way we used to, we've just developed the capacity to have other ways in which to hunt.

    Referencing the "slaughter of animals for fur" -> Humans use money as a commodity to survive these days. If finding a way to make money so they can get food on their table includes slaughtering an animal for fur -> to make money from to enable survival -> is so wrong, you're basically judging their way of surviving. Do you have a right to do that? Probably not. But you still do it anyway. Not everyone is going to agree with all the choices people make (and I'm being a bit critical here as the worlds system has been more developed by humans with relatively recent developments within technology - I'll go into that in more detail in a minute) - but putting it into basics, in order to survive in the way of the world these days, people need money. How they get that money is not going to appeal to some, or even the majority, but they've found a way to survive the ever increasing demands of life.

    Just to drop another subtle difference in. How is it that people who keep animals like dogs as pets -> will ever agree with the Koreans eating that particular animal? They're not likely to agree - but it's a different survival technique. It's still eating meat from an animal (just like us who will eat chicken/turkey/duck/beef(cow)/lamb/pork(pig) ) - but we're less inclined to believe that eating meat from these animals isn't as wrong as eating "pets".

    Now onto technology. This is one thing that while I use it a lot more than I perhaps should, I'm not a major fan of when putting it up under scrutiny in regards to the system.

    People these days rely on more technology to communicate - losing their sociability. I've known people to text each other via mobiles - while in the same room as each other. And with more and more people doing things like that, the art of conversation is slowly dwindling (not to say everyone does it - not by a long shot) - but it really isn't helping. This is turning society into an anti-social one > which in turn doesn't help the care factor. Not only that, the way in which people shorten some words (text-speak) - is, for me, a pure bit of laziness. Not everyone can read a line or two which is shortened to the likes of "hy, hru? im gd, wubu2?" (Although most can grasp the concept of what is being asked in that example). So many shorthands make reading through it all a trifle disconcerting to those who like to read.

    I do use the "social network" called Facebook -> not really that social if you consider the minor detail that it's all online, and gives a reluctance to actively go and talk to the people on my "friends" list. Having not been so adept socially over the years, I find myself relying on this very way of communicating in order to maintain some sense of conversation with people I don't always have the time to make the effort to see. Some are family members who are many miles away (I have an uncle in Gibraltar and I live in the UK - for example) - which put alongside my lack of a passport, makes it a viable use of such. However, when people are in a closer proximity to each other (ie, the same town), communicating this way is a lot less social, and a lot of "laundry is aired" this way.

    I will look to add more when I am a little more focused. And I'd expect my own perspective to be scrutinised heavily.

    But my perspective is that technology makes us less social as a society. And there is no unnaturality to how people survive the concept of their lifespan when put under deep scrutinisation.

    I agree that the system itself is not ideal - not by any stretch of the imagination.
  12. Viktor

    Viktor Well-Known Member
    I'm glad someone sees it the same way and saying it in public. And i agree with him 100%. People are even educating their children to do the same. Which makes all people fallow this stupid path which says "do what you need to do and not what you want to do". That way it became true in the term that you really mostly have to do only what you need to, because world became like this. People are simply stupidly and blindly fallows what other people teaches them, so everyone becomes robots. Doing the same boring thing every day, because well, they have to now. Because 90% of people in the world does that, so the system really became like that. So the 90% of the people can't do what they really want and the sad thing is, they see it as fine. People are getting used to it. They are not trying to make the world better. That is why it's this messed up.
  13. meaningless-vessel

    meaningless-vessel Well-Known Member

    Educated to be blind to what is really going on, then it's a shock when their eyes are truly opened.
  14. Viktor

    Viktor Well-Known Member

    I'm really glad for such videos. It's good to know that there are more people among us that aren't blind. Sadly, there are still not enough of such people and when you realize those facts described in the video as one of many people who are still blind, you will start to feel so alone in this world. In the comments under the video, you can see some typical replies of blind people. And thanks to such mindset of such people, the world will never change and it will go worse and worse. And those few of us who were lucky... or maybe unlucky enough and opened our eyes, will just suffer as a outsiders of the world's system.
  15. Guestor

    Guestor Member

    There is actually a solution to this system, which is called the Price System.

    The Solution is called Technocracy (the one designed by Technocracy Incorporated in the 1936s, not the hijacked european word or today).
  16. mulberrypie

    mulberrypie Well-Known Member

    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2015
  17. Viktor

    Viktor Well-Known Member

  18. Viktor

    Viktor Well-Known Member

  19. MushroomCloud

    MushroomCloud New Member

  20. NYJmpMaster

    NYJmpMaster Have a question? Message Me Staff Member Forum Owner ADMIN

    None of these "systems " in any way replace the basic concept of work. The primitive way of life referenced was working 18 hours a day trying to maintain the basic needs of food water and shelter and still failing a large percentage of the time- just like over 50% of every species of animals in the wild dies before reaching maturity so the half baked claims of the wonderful free life in the wild as opposed to the horrid conditions on a farm are also complete "rainbows and unicorns look beautiful through my rose colored glasses" nonsense by people that have never studied or have a grasp of actual life in the wild (or even spent a few hours watching legitimate nature shows).

    The price systems and every system , even the basic system of wild animals is simple- if the majority of time is not spent working then animals (and people prior to modern civilization) die from starvation and lack of basic needs. In modern (particularly western) the social services system in place allows for people unable for whatever reason to completely survive on their , be it age, illness, infirmity or handicap, whatever- to survive and still meet minimal basic needs. While clearly would be nice if were able to further reduce it from the US average 42 hour work week 49 weeks a year ot the 38 hour 46 week a year Europeans work week. In any case it means the vast majority work less than 30% of the time while the life expectancy and percentage of people living to maturity has never been higher and continue.

    The concept that work is too hard and should not be required to survive or one should not have to do it simply because it is not fun? I have no response to that. I am unsure what system allows one to simply lie around in luxury being entertained and pampered as life time pursuit other than certain family members of the odd uber rich which were also dissed as being horrid examples of humans yet that is precisely the apparent aspiration to have a life where one needs to do nothing that they do not consider to be fun and all get to choose that for themselves and if it does not in fact generate anything productive then food and homes and cars and luxuries to allow that existence should materialize as magic for their benefit.....
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