• Please read the thread in Forum News and Announcements pertaining to race related discussion on SF - thank you :)

The death penalty as legally justified retribution in the criminal justice system

Do you agree with the death penalty?

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 21.8%
  • No

    Votes: 24 43.6%
  • It depends/Unsure

    Votes: 19 34.5%

  • Total voters
    55
Status
Not open for further replies.
#42
I'm not saying they have a right to live, i'm saying so-called civillised and 'good' people don't have the right to kill them.

Also let's remember what kind of forum we're on here, people come here because they feel they have nothing in their life and want to die, so i can only assume that criminals serving a life sentence with nothing in their lives would rather die aswell, so you would be giving them what they want....'an easy way out'.
 
#43
I'm not saying they have a right to live, i'm saying so-called civillised and 'good' people don't have the right to kill them.

Also let's remember what kind of forum we're on here, people come here because they feel they have nothing in their life and want to die, so i can only assume that criminals serving a life sentence with nothing in their lives would rather die aswell, so you would be giving them what they want....'an easy way out'.
I mentioned that in my posts, and I would want to give them that release. We, on the outside all really do have reason to live, weather we see it all the time or only sometimes, it's there. But those people, the serial killers and serial rapists really don't. I don't believe in making someone suffer as a result of that person making others suffer, if that were the case I would be against the death penalty.

The death is painless, lets keep that in mind. But also, a sociopath can't feel the same way you or I can, no love, no despair, no real emotion at all... so how much are they really suffering in prison?
 
#44
I don't believe in making someone suffer as a result of that person making others suffer, if that were the case I would be against the death penalty.

The death is painless, lets keep that in mind. But also, a sociopath can't feel the same way you or I can, no love, no despair, no real emotion at all... so how much are they really suffering in prison?
You make a good point but not everyone is a sociopath, i just feel there is no real punishment in the death penalty, a life sentence would make them experience what it's like to have their life taken away.
 
#45
You make a good point but not everyone is a sociopath, i just feel there is no real punishment in the death penalty, a life sentence would make them experience what it's like to have their life taken away.
Both are very good points. It's funny how I can disagree with your opinion, but agree with the points that led you to form your opinion haha.

If it were a just world then you are right, make the ones who can feel rot in prison, if that's what makes people sleep better at night. But the ones who can't feel, why keep them alive? Keep feeding them, housing them, keeping them warm and safe in their little cell with their blanket and pillow and 3 square meals a day, yard time, TV, books to entertain them (this is the standard care for a maximum security inmate)... if it isn't really a punishment in their minds there is no point in spending the money, our prisons are congested enough as it is anyhow lol.
 
#46
I totally agree with jadedmaggi in that prison is no punishment,it's a walk in the park especially if they are British,gymnasiums,access to sky sports,playstations. They get to enjoy things that many decent folk who don't commit crime can't afford. However as I stated before I'm not looking for the death sentence as a punishment or revenge but simply to free society from people that can't function without harming others. It costs millions to keep someone in jail for 30-40-50yrs what is the point in doing that? The idea that we can somehow monitor pedo's and killers before they commit these crimes is beyond belief. Where are we gonna find the resources to have a police officer holding the hands of these people 24/7? How are we even gonna know who these people might be before they commit their crimes? Psychological profiling for every man,women and child on the planet? And you called me naive hmmm
 

hornbeam

Well-Known Member
#47
what about people that kill people - if they are drunk driving or drug driving.....

do you think they should be killed as well? Because in a way they are just as bad - or worse because they know what they are doing?
 
#48
No I'm talking about people that kill in cold blood,those who planned to take a life and pedophiles. Somebody who thinks it's ok to have sex with a child does not need to carry on living,it's a fact that they will do it again and we know that they don't get locked away for life.we owe it to children to protect them from these vile people. Regarding drunk/drug drivers,I think they are disgusting for driving under the influence and should be imprisoned for a very long time but they did not intend to kill or maim and for the most part show a great deal of remorse for their crimes. It's also unlikely that these people would ever commit that crime again. The same cannot be said for psychopaths and pedos who almost always do it again.
 
#49
If you kill,or molest a child then you are not fit to breathe. I think those crimes should be punished by death once definitive,indisputable evidence is present. That's my view which I'm sure will be very unpopular in these pc times but that's how I see it.
I have an interesting story for you a 18 year old got oral sex from a 15 year old and there was a video for it and he got charged(he didn't tape it). He didn't want to take a plea because he would be deemed a 'child molester' and couldn't live with his little sister. He ended up convicted and got 10 years due to not taking the plea.

Do you think this man deserves to die after all he was a convicted child molester or does statutory rape not really make someone a child molester in your eyes? IMO it's extremely unlikely that this man was a threat to anyone yet he has that tag for life...

You guys have made some interesting points in here, I do understand where most of you guys are coming from.

Sometimes we can do something wrong and rationalize it through a delusion. For example invading Iraq because they were a threat and had 'weapons of mass destruction' that was a delusion.


That's exactly it Mark, Monsters. Mentally, emotionally, they are not human at all anymore. Sociopaths who are incapable of feeling... regret, remorse, pity... these ideals are foreign to them; they are Monsters in human form.

I don't think that just any killer should be put to death, but a sociopathic killer, or any killer that can never be rehabilitated and returned to society should be. The "crime of passion" killer, the killer who's hand was forced or the killer who accidentally killed can usually be helped and set free to live normal lives, without putting others in danger, but there are those who simply do not feel, and those are the dangerous ones.
Malignant narcissists are similar to sociopaths here's a quote from this article.

The Narcissist: Refusal to acknowledge sin

It is necessary that we first draw the distinction between evil and ordinary sin. It is not their sins per se that characterize evil people...The central defect of the evil is not the sin but the refusal to acknowledge it.p 69

If evil people cannot be defined by the illegality of their deeds or the magnitude of their sins, then how are we to define them? The answer is by the consistency of their sins. While usually subtle, their destructiveness is remarkably consistent. This is because those who have "crossed over the line" are characterized by their absolute refusal to tolerate the sense of their own sinfulness.p 71

The evil hate the light--the light of goodness that shows them up, the light of scrutiny that exposes them, the light of truth that penetrates their deception.p 179 Rather than blissfully lacking a sense of morality, like the sociopath, they are continually engaged in sweeping the evidence of their evil under the rug of their own consciousness.p 76

The poor in spirit do not commit evil. Evil is not committed by people who feel uncertain about their righteousness, who question their own motives, who worry about betraying themselves. The evil in this world is committed by the spiritual fat cats, by the Pharisees of our own day, the self-righteous who think they are without sin because they are unwilling to suffer the discomfort of significant self-examination.

Unpleasant though it may be, the sense of personal sin is precisely that which keeps our sin from getting out of hand. It is quite painful at times, but it is a very great blessing because it is our one and only effective safeguard against our own proclivity for evil. p 71-72
Here's the article. It's quite fascinating how the author states that evil is committed by people who are convinced of their self righteousness.

http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/Perspectives/MalignantNarcissism.htm
 
Last edited by a moderator:
#50
Yeah I think your kind of splitting hairs to try and make me look stupid. Obviously an 18yr old guy sleeping with a 15yr old is not crime of the century providing the girl was mature enough to make the decision to consent. I'm kinda talking about the guy who gets off looking at images of children with adults.The sicko who thinks it's ok to have sex with a child who has no idea what's going on.The case your talking about has happened numerous times and sometimes the courts have ruled in the boys favour because the girl is very mature for her age,lied about her age or entrapped the man and a court case would determine which of these is true. I dont think there would be people calling for an 18yr old boy to be given the death sentence for having a sexual relationship with a 15yr old. Lets not be naive there are a lot of parents that allow their 15yr old daughter to go out with older boys and do you really think they aren't having a physical relationship? Just thought I'd adrress that before people accuse me of double standards. I think everybody knows the sickos I'm talking about that should be killed to save more children suffering at their hands.
 
#51
Being abused is the gift that keeps on giving for the rest of a persons life. Here's just one report I found regarding suicide but you will find many more regarding drug/alcohol abuse,inability to form relationships and much more in the way of damage.

September 23, 2009 — Sexual abuse is a significant precursor for suicidal behavior, particularly among women, new research suggests.

A randomized cross-sectional survey of the British population shows that a history of sexual abuse is strongly associated with suicide attempts and suicidal intent and that although the association is higher for women than men, it is substantial for both groups, with odds ratios of 9.6 and 6.7, respectively.

Led by Paul E. Bebbington, PhD, FRCP, FRCPsych, investigators at University College London, United Kingdom, note that based on these findings, the absence of sexual abuse would mean the rate of suicide attempts during a lifetime would drop by 28% in women and by 7% in men.

The study was published online September 1 and will appear in the October print issue of the American Journal of Psychiatry.

I just think our concern should be only on the victims of crime and not the perpetrators. They just need putting to sleep and nothing more
 
#52
Thank you, Light, that was very enlightening. But what is your opinion? Do you think that the Death Penalty should be based on these moral and mental dysfunctions? After all, people with these particullar dysfunctions can not be released back in to society without being a danger to all those around them... or do you feel that they should sit in prison and rot? There is no real right or wrong answer here, it's all opinion. One the one hand, you will not be doing to them the thing that you told them was so wrong they would be locked away; killing. On the other, you would not be spending money keeping them alive and comfortable. (most western societies keep prisoners very comfortable. Supply them with 3 healthy meals a day, time to exercise, socialize and provide entertainment for them)

Mark, I totally agree with you that some sex offenders are simply victims of circumstance, such as the boy who is dating a younger girl, then turns 18 and is arrested for statutory rape. I also agree that offenders who target young children should never be released, and should in fact be put to death. People in the past have been castrated for these crimes, but then came back into the world to become killers because they found that killing was a new way to get off, sexual sadists we call them. There should be no life for these people, in my opinion, and they often offend while in jail using memories of the abuse they have inflicted on children as fuel, so they can rape fellow inmates.
 
#53
Yeah I think your kind of splitting hairs to try and make me look stupid. Obviously an 18yr old guy sleeping with a 15yr old is not crime of the century providing the girl was mature enough to make the decision to consent. I'm kinda talking about the guy who gets off looking at images of children with adults.The sicko who thinks it's ok to have sex with a child who has no idea what's going on.The case your talking about has happened numerous times and sometimes the courts have ruled in the boys favour because the girl is very mature for her age,lied about her age or entrapped the man and a court case would determine which of these is true. I dont think there would be people calling for an 18yr old boy to be given the death sentence for having a sexual relationship with a 15yr old. Lets not be naive there are a lot of parents that allow their 15yr old daughter to go out with older boys and do you really think they aren't having a physical relationship? Just thought I'd adrress that before people accuse me of double standards. I think everybody knows the sickos I'm talking about that should be killed to save more children suffering at their hands.
I wasn't trying to make you look stupid, i do get where you're coming from and understand the kind of people you're referring to. My intent was about making a point how some labels are off base and may not always be fitting.

From what I've heard almost all people that abuse children sexually(not talking statutory rape) almost never stop at just one victim, this can obviously lead to a lifetime of issues for the victim(s). With that said I do get where you're coming from wanting to end those kinds of people's lives as to spare further innocent people.

Most people with sex addiction have had at least one childhood trauma. Many researchers believe trauma is a main cause of addicitions and at the very least a large factor in the development of one.

From what I know the cost of having someone on death row is quite expensive and it's very common for it to take 20 years or so before the person convicted is put to death.
 
#54
Thank you, Light, that was very enlightening. But what is your opinion? Do you think that the Death Penalty should be based on these moral and mental dysfunctions? After all, people with these particullar dysfunctions can not be released back in to society without being a danger to all those around them... or do you feel that they should sit in prison and rot? There is no real right or wrong answer here, it's all opinion. One the one hand, you will not be doing to them the thing that you told them was so wrong they would be locked away; killing. On the other, you would not be spending money keeping them alive and comfortable. (most western societies keep prisoners very comfortable. Supply them with 3 healthy meals a day, time to exercise, socialize and provide entertainment for them)

Mark, I totally agree with you that some sex offenders are simply victims of circumstance, such as the boy who is dating a younger girl, then turns 18 and is arrested for statutory rape. I also agree that offenders who target young children should never be released, and should in fact be put to death. People in the past have been castrated for these crimes, but then came back into the world to become killers because they found that killing was a new way to get off, sexual sadists we call them. There should be no life for these people, in my opinion, and they often offend while in jail using memories of the abuse they have inflicted on children as fuel, so they can rape fellow inmates.
You are correct it is a matter of perception or opinion, like most things in life.

Its hard to say exactly Jaded I mean people do change, if they are in the right environment through reform and rehabilitation. Sadly jail is most often not the right environment it often leads people to become more criminally minded so to speak. In my opinion someone is more able to change when their younger or an adolescent this is why we have different laws for underage offenders. Even diagnoses like antisocial personality disorder(sociopath) aren't given until someone is at least 18. Even some people are adolescents into their early 20's, lol!

To some degree we become a product of our environment, a good example of this is what is known as the dyssocial sociopath. This person may not be aggressive or sadistic in nature, however they assimilate to their surroundings, abiding by gang rules which often leads to violence and other cruel means. Even people involved with gangs that are in jails some do get rehabilitated and get out of that life when they are released yet a good portion just stay in that cycle. Their friends are gang members and they only really know how to life in that kind of illegal lifestyle, not to mention having a criminal record and all kinds of tattoo's all over your body often makes it harder to somewhat blend in with people who aren't involved in the criminal element.

Sociopaths or even malignant narcissists are really good at deception they may appear to be better then they are and such, thus it's quite complicated trying to use pathology to determine if someone should be locked away for life or even sentenced to the death penalty. How much of their actions are related to their disposition versus their situation. Even people we labels as thugs or gangster are in in many cases were nice kids at one point in time and somewhere along the lines there was a change in them due to a variety of factors, kinda like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde scenario.

As that article states these people must deny their own badness thus they view others as bad. It's kinda like DARVO a tool abusers use(Deny Attack Reversing Victim Order) and then they terrorize the real victim with attacks on their credibility sometimes in some cases even trying to get the victims family on their side or even other officials such as police.

I think you're walking on a fine line though encouraging doing something wrong to make a right, which in a sense is what the death penalty is about. This is also what revenge is based out of doing something wrong to make a right, revenge is selfish, there is no such thing as harming someone psychologically or physically(either is evil) in order to 'make things right'(two wrongs make a right fallacy). With that said revenge is fairly different from death penalty, however in some cases revenge can lead to someone being killed, so it's not grossly different.
 
#55
I think you're walking on a fine line though encouraging doing something wrong to make a right, which in a sense is what the death penalty is about. This is also what revenge is based out of doing something wrong to make a right, revenge is selfish, there is no such thing as harming someone psychologically or physically(either is evil) in order to 'make things right'(two wrongs make a right fallacy). With that said revenge is fairly different from death penalty, however in some cases revenge can lead to someone being killed, so it's not grossly different.
I've said it before but I will keep on repeating myself if need be,it would not be "doing wrong to make a right" and it has nothing whatsoever to do with revenge.I'm simply talking about cold blooded murderers and perverts who repeatedly prey on children to be put to sleep in order to save society from them.If a dog starts savaging people nobody complains about the dog being put to sleep which happens by law everytime.I have more sympathy and understanding for an animal that turns vicious than a person, nobody worries wether that dog has been abused.why people are so precious about the human
race is beyond me,our numbers aren't in decline we aren't in danger of ecstinction.These wretched excuses for human beings are beyond help so it's time they were dispatched and I'm talking about putting them to sleep immediately after being found guilty,not languishing on death row for twenty years with appeal after appeal. Time it's time...
P.S. There was a young lady on here last night who was molested as a child and repeatedly raped in her teens,she now cuts herself to bits and wants to die. It broke my heart to hear how broken she is and all the time we've got people worrying about the rights of these monsters who devastate people's lives. It's about time people got their priorities right if you ask me
 
#56
I've said it before but I will keep on repeating myself if need be,it would not be "doing wrong to make a right" and it has nothing whatsoever to do with revenge.I'm simply talking about cold blooded murderers and perverts who repeatedly prey on children to be put to sleep in order to save society from them.If a dog starts savaging people nobody complains about the dog being put to sleep which happens by law everytime.I have more sympathy and understanding for an animal that turns vicious than a person, nobody worries wether that dog has been abused.why people are so precious about the human
race is beyond me,our numbers aren't in decline we aren't in danger of ecstinction.These wretched excuses for human beings are beyond help so it's time they were dispatched and I'm talking about putting them to sleep immediately after being found guilty,not languishing on death row for twenty years with appeal after appeal. Time it's time...
P.S. There was a young lady on here last night who was molested as a child and repeatedly raped in her teens,she now cuts herself to bits and wants to die. It broke my heart to hear how broken she is and all the time we've got people worrying about the rights of these monsters who devastate people's lives. It's about time people got their priorities right if you ask me
I understand where you're coming from that is very sick and saddening to hear what that young lady what through. Sadly there are horrendous things that happen much too often. People treating others as objects and lacking empathy is all too common.

I never said I care about the rights of a psychopathic abusers such as the ones you listed however I'm just not sure the kind of message it sends killing people. A death sentence for some may even be more desirable then living the rest of their life in prison.

Here's an interesting video on psychopaths. I like what the man says about creating facilities where they can live together in isolation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hon3AzMO6vs&feature=related
 
#57
You make several good points, Light. I agree that is it a very fine line. It can be hard to form an opinion when you are not talking about an individual, I feel.
It would be much easier if we had a case in hand to study because I think the death penalty should be based on many many points; the nature of the crimes committed, of course. The number of crimes committed (serial murder or serial rape would seem DP worthy to me), mental state at the time of the crimes versus mental state before and after, remorse and the likelihood that the offender will offend again.
All of these points can be very hard to determine, especially the last one, but I do not feel this is something to be determined in a court room, but rather after many many sessions with a group of psychiatrists who would eventually come to a unanimous conclusion that this person will always be a danger to society.
 
#58
I don't even want to entertain facilities for these creeps,as far as I'm concerned every penny spent detaining these monsters is money that could have gone to their victims/families to help them rebuild their lives if that's possible. At least they wouldnt have financial headaches to go with the rest of their problems and can put all their focus into recovery.
 

VALIS

Well-Known Member
#59
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29552692/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/execute-or-not-question-cost/

10X more expensive to maintain the death penalty than to imprison for life.

Which is not to say IMO that the deciding factor should come down to $$$. Its just a misconception.

I am against the DP because currently, drawing the line between what offenses are punished by death is too arbitrary for us to rely on the justice system to decide who dies. Too dependent on circumstance, jury composition, legal representation quality, hell, race/gender/social class.
 
#60
I think maybe the death penalty would be an effective deterrent if it were carried out immediately after the trial.it's obviously not a deterrent currently because people know that it takes decades to happen but will probably be overturned after all the do-gooders protest and umpteen appeals at huge expense.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Please Donate to Help Keep SF Running

Total amount
$305.00
Goal
$255.00
Top