The great debate...

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by lost43215, Sep 30, 2009.

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  1. lost43215

    lost43215 Well-Known Member

    I know this will spark a ton of controversy, but it's what I believe. I think that in some circumstances suicide should be allowed. Im not talking about assisted suicide cases.

    I mean, obviously it shouldnt be allowed if the person isnt in the right frame of mind. IE, if they are under stress, or mentally ill, or just a chemical imbalance. Im talking about completely sane people who actually logically thought it over, looked at their future, understand what they are giving up, and being able to end their life if they so choose. Im sure there's prob not that many with those circumstances so...

    For me, yes I do get depressed every now and then and consider suicide, but even outside of those times, even if Im happy, I still consider it. Ive thought a lot about my future, even thinking if there was the slightest chance all my problems would go away, Id never have anymore, and I could do what I wanted. I just dont see anything hugely worth living for me. Is it that hard to believe that I would want to end my own life? Overall Im happy with how my life has turned out, so for me to die today or tomorrow wouldnt be a regret. I really dont want to end up living for 70+ years, it's just a rediculous long time. I mean, from now on peoples lives are pretty bland. You work majority of the time, and ya you get to have some fun, but to me it's not that big of a deal for me. Like I said, it's not that I really want badly to die right now, but Id still have no regets if I did die.

    Again, Im not saying everyone should have that right, but some should. I mean, you have the option to choose everything else in your life: what jobs you keep, who you marry, where you live, etc. Why shouldnt the option to die, for those who've given it tons of thought, and prob with a phyciatrists approval, be there?

    PS, I also know there will prob be a lot of comments about how it's not possible to want to die, etc, not in human nature, but I expect that... it is a debate after all.
     
  2. the fleet asleep

    the fleet asleep Well-Known Member

    Wanting to die due to emotional stress is should always be frowned upon, for the obvious reasons. On this site, we have a tremendously biased view of these things, but I dont feel like emotional stress is any justification for causing your own death. Just because I am suicidal does not mean I cannot recognize how pathetic it is to want to kill yourself because of something like that. If I choose to kill myself, I will have no problem admitting that I am doing so because Im too weak to cope with things, not try to justify it by creating some poetic line of reasoning.

    That said, I dont believe most people in a place like this "want" to die. If you wanted to die, you wouldnt care that living is so hard. If you wanted to die, the same way you want to drink a coke, youd simply die. I think its more a case of wanting to live so badly that not being able to do so the way youd like (for whatever reason) causes you to collapse under the weight of the tremendous amount of work it would take to get you to that point. This may not always be the case, but as I said, if you truly wanted to die, youd simply die.

    Also, I still dont understand this whole "right to die" argument. The whole "right to die" thing only applies to people who do not have the ability to bring on their own death. No one is stopping any healthy, capable person from dying, and no one will ever be able to. How sad a society would we be if we let anyone who was going through some shit to walk into a hospital, and be euthanized? That really is the only possible way to attach a physically capable person to the "right to die" argument, is that these capable people want to be able to be euthanized. People capable of dying by their own hand do not need a "right" to die, you can die any time you want to, and any person who feels theat people should feel so bad for them that they would provide them with some kind of "mercy kill", well, I shouldnt even need to get into why thats ridiculous.

    Im suicidal, yes, but I dont try to pretend that suicide is anything more than death. I dont try to justify it, or romanticize it, or make it into this just and fitting end to some kind of fairy tale gone wrong. For now, Im physically capable of living, and if you are physically capable of life, killing yourself should be seen for just what it is: unnecessary death. I will have died for no other reason than because I couldnt deal with living. Again, it is not like it matters, because if I wanted to die, I would be dead. I wouldnt need to attempt a dozen times on the way home from my therapist, for christs sake.

    Anyway, thats my two cents. Im not sure why I bother posting. This place can be so skewed on the matter that I always end up frustrated.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2009
  3. lost43215

    lost43215 Well-Known Member

    By right to die I mean in terms of the law, since it's illegal to. And like I said, it still should be illegal and not right for someone going through problems in their life to die.

    I mean, for me again, it's not that I dont think I could accomplish anything I could for the rest of my life and do stuff I wanted to do. Im also not saying Id want to die for any problems in my life or anything. Im just saying Id want to cause, I guess I just dont see a point in living a drawn out life. I mean, there's lots of things in your life that you like, but sometimes you just dont want to do them. I dont understand why it's so hard to accept the fact that you can logically and sanely want to die. Is it cause people believe I still have things to contribute to society? Is it cause they believe that there's lots out there that I could still do and enjoy my life? Im not saying that I couldnt enjoy my life, or that impossible for me to, im just saying it's just not something I feel like doing.

    Btw, when I say I im not trying to just specify me, but Im sure theres some others out there in the world like me.
     
  4. hi my name is

    hi my name is Well-Known Member

    screw the law. people will die if they really want to. the law will never stop reality. i should be dead right now if it wasn't for an act of god and i'm alive serious. wal-mart's layaway was not allowing anyone to put things back there and oh my god if i would have gotten my way it would have been set in stone. or would it have been? i will never know.. thanks to an mdma experience (which has helped thousands if not millions of ppl get over depression, not to mention the WW2 veterens that suffered all kinds of disorders which is where this chemical got it's start and why it's illegal it was too good and got pushed underground) i got my life back in order and i went from below rock bottom to the best outview on life i could ever have and i am so thankful that what has happened to me has because i don't know if i could appreciate life this much. with all of that being said there is a method for people to die painlessly, instant painless knockout and absolute death within 5 minutes. i'm am a really thorough researcher and i found out all the tricks. painless, fast, and effective. it is actually what pushed me to finally do it! i think there are a lot of people like me that if they found out they could do it this way (and all materials are easy to obtain) it would push them over the edge like it did to me. so if it were legal i don't know which difference it would make if you could tell me i would like to know. do you get a fine for it or something? i have no idea. which sounds ridiculous anyway why not put the money towards finding out the causes? maybe if we celebrated everyday like it was everybodies birthday we would be better off. isn't it like living each day like your last in a way? i don't know i'm rambling off topic a bit. my conclusion is the law is bullshit and nature rules
     
  5. the fleet asleep

    the fleet asleep Well-Known Member

    You cant be seen as sanely wanting to die because its not particularly sane. The will to live is a base instinct, and no amount of conscious thought can change that (well, i suppose if you spent a lifetime training yourself to be indifferent to death you could, but why would you want to live that kind of life anyway?). No matter how badly you want to die, if someone pulled a gun on you right now, i promise that 99% of you would crap yourselves in fear.

    If you can come to the sane conclusion that you should be legally allowed to kill yourself, what can keep you from coming to that same conclusion about someone else? You have no way of knowing how productive you may be in society, and if you can be allowed to base something like your decision to die on something thats a complete unknown, then there wouldnt be anything stopping people from being able to make that same baseless assumption about other people.

    Think about it this way. If you can be allowed to kill yourself if you believe that you will never bring anything to society, an assumption that has no base in anything other than your own opinion, whats to keep people from making that same decision for someone born with a severe disability? Whereas you feel as though you have nothing to offer, there are people born every day who will live their entire lives completely dependant on others for their survival. If you are allowed to die because you feel as though that what you have to offer doesnt offset what youd have to take, why cant we make that same assumption about someone who is physically or mentally incapable of giving more than they take? What applies to you in this kind of situation must inevitably apply to all. Those people may not be able to make the decision to die for themselves, but if you can die because youll do nothing but live a drawn out life, then that is what life itself will be worth. If life becomes accepted as so worthless, then there would be no problem killing people who have less to give society than you do.

    What I am saying is that if coming to a sane decision to die for any reason becomes widely accepted as a perfectly reasonable thing to do, then life itself, for everyone, will be treated with that same sense of worthlessness. Now, we can say that our individual lives are worthless, but thats just the way we feel. Even then, we cannot say "my life is worthless for [x] reason" without saying "life itself is worthless for [x] reason". If you say your life is worthless because you feel like you will never be truly happy, you have to say that life itself is worthless for the same reason.

    If this kind of thing becomes an accepted thing to do, then would all life not be treated with that same worthlessness? Are many of us not here specifically because someone treated our lives as worthless?

    I feel for anyone that has this kind of pain to a certain degree, but we will never recover from a terminal case of suicidal ideation if we are spending our time trying to get people to accept our suicide as valid. If you allow your suicidal ideation to become the basis of your personality, how can you expect to ever be happy? Hell, even if you allow it to become a personality trait at all, youre doing nothing but feeding into an ideation that will only serve to kill you.
     
  6. itmahanh

    itmahanh Senior Member & Antiquities Friend

    Wow you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a single sane person if they are about to committ suicide. Anyone in that position is suffering from something to a terrible degree. And what ever that something is it is clouding their judgement to say the very least. No judge in any country could possible say "yep, you're thinking clearly and rationally, so go ahead".

    Committing the act of suicide is as personal as it gets. Best to leave it that way. Do we really need anymore interference from governments that cant be bothered to try and educate the population about suicide and the stigma surrounding it? Now to give them the right to say yes or no? Well would save them a lot of $ on those info brochures wouldnt it. At that exact last second, before the person committs, know one else has a say as to whether it will happen or not. So it really is up to an individual if they can or cant.
     
  7. Datura

    Datura Well-Known Member

    It's only illegal if you fail and get caught. But for sake of argument - suicide for any reason should be legal. It's just another example of the government asserting its power by saying "No you can't do this with your life."

    What kind of "sane" and logical person would need to go to someone for permission? There's no logic in that. You thought about it, you've done the research, so carry it out. Who would want the hassle and attention that would come with asking some psychiatrist if it's okay to die.

    Even if your idea were to become accepted, lost, nobody is going to screen all these individuals and either give them a free pass, or force them to live. That would be more controversial than abortion and worse for society all around.
     
  8. Menchi

    Menchi Well-Known Member

    In the UK (and, i think, Ireland), suicide isn't illegal. And regardless of that, it is my belief that sometimes (and this isn't an opinion most people share on here), suicide is justified. I am a supporter of euthanasia, assisted suicide in the case of terminally ill patients, if that is their wish. I would argue that someone making that choice, is doing so completely sanely.

    The difficulty going beyond that, is the issue of suicide in those who are suffering from mental difficulties, whether based on psychological disorders, environmental factors, or a mixture of both, it is pretty much impossible to see, even from the perception of the person committing the act, whether or not the basis of it is sane. There have been times when my suicide has been completely driven by emotion, through self hatred and anger, and i know then that those times were not sane. But on the other side, sometimes i have been able to deal with the issue completely dispassionately, and logically come to the conclusion that suicide is my only option. And i do think that was sane, but was also lucky that i was not alone at the time, so was either logically argued out of it for a time, or became re-engaged with positive emotion. Its more a matter of altering perception, than being sane or insane.

    But i find myself unable to argue that, given that i believe that euthanasia is right, that those suffering from dehabilitating mental issues (as oppose to physical), should not also be able to make that same choice, from both a legal and a moral perspective. Morally, what right does anyone else have, over what someone does with their own person?
     
  9. Entoloma43

    Entoloma43 Well-Known Member

    Reproduction is also a base-instinct. By your logic, people who don't want to reproduce cannot be seen as sane.


    I find it laughable you have to even ask this question.
    Answer = self-ownership, it's YOUR life, you should be able to kill yourself if you wish. You're not harming anyone except yourself (other than emotional harm of other people, but if you go down this road, you'd have to make billions of things illegal).


    "Suicide is a fundamental human right. ...society does not have the moral right to interfere, by force, with a person's decision to commit this act"
     
  10. Mikeintx

    Mikeintx Well-Known Member

    I do not believe it is illegal to suicide in the US anymore...
     
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