The myths of vaccination

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by me1, May 15, 2009.

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  1. me1

    me1 Well-Known Member

  2. Abacus21

    Abacus21 Staff Alumni

    1) Why should I sign up to read that, which I don't believe in, anyway?
    2) Biased article, from the first few lines that I read of it without a very annoying box pop up.
     
  3. aoeu

    aoeu Well-Known Member

    Smallpox disappeared by the grace of God, coincidentally at the exact same time as worldwide vaccination drives attempted to eradicate it.
     
  4. hammockmonkey

    hammockmonkey Well-Known Member

    So, I'm assuming that an evolution post is coming soon? That or some religious one. I like the regularity of these posts and questions. Even counterculture has its own particular rhythms.
     
  5. MeAndYou

    MeAndYou Well-Known Member

    I can understand the concern, particularly in the US, of having a small 10 pound being subjected to 36(?) vaccines within days of being born when mercury is used to preserve the vaccines. But i dont believe refraining from vaccinating your children all together is a very smart idea (dont believe everything oprah says..shes been known to not really know what shes talking about...at all). There are many diseases that modern western society has the capacity and luxury to live without simply through vaccinations.

    Having said that, i do think we need tighter regulation on the pharmaceutical and vaccination companies. The bottom line is they are out for a profit like any business except theirs is through mass immunization. The FDA is almost a joke worth its regulation in laughter.


    Smallpox disappeared by the grace of God, coincidentally at the exact same time as worldwide vaccination drives attempted to eradicate it.


    No offense but at first i thought you were being sarcastic. I actually still dont know if you are. But this mentality can be conducive to the spread of disease and illness. "Let Gods will be done." When there is a vaccine to cure a disease just doesnt sit right with me...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2009
  6. shades

    shades Staff Alumni

    First, lets look at the source of the article, whatisname, the Director of Citizens for Healthcare, (I don't see any m.d., or p.h.d. listed anywhere near it.)

    Then see above post regarding smallpox:

    Then tip-toe your way to Wikipedia and check on Poliomyelitis or Polio Vaccine and you will see that this went from epidemic proportions, to hundreds of thousands of cases, to thousands of cases to just 1,300 cases worldwide by 2007. I don't think you can argue with that kind of success.

    HOWEVER, there have been enough doubts thrown about regarding the use of metals in most vaccines which may be linked to autism. This, I believe is still being looked at by the medical profession and I think the 'jury" is still out on this.

    I am not a parent but if I were, this would be the only issue I would be concerned about right now and I would do as much research as possible as the autism rates have climbed over the years.
     
  7. me1

    me1 Well-Known Member

    Well, firstly, I didn't post this link specifically for you, Joe. I posted it in the, perhaps foolish, hope, that there might be an open-minded person perusing these pages. There has to be one somewhere, right? :tongue:

    Secondly, there is mountain of statistical evidence showing that vaccines are neither safe nor effivacious. I would have thought that this evidence would be of interest to anyone interested in their own health and life. But, that said, a suicide forum perhaps is not the best medium for advancing information pertaining to one's own well-being, is it? :tongue:




    Well, actually, if one bothers to look at the relevant graphs and accompanying statistics, one can can confirm only to readily that the vaccine was NOT the cause of the decline, but in fact an antagonist. The disease had already been in decline for some time (reason for this?) when the introduction of the smallpox vaccine caused the greatest epidemic in British history, killing some 42 thousand people in England and Wales, in one year alone. Indeed, epidemics ALWAYS followed high vaccination levels, hence the compulsory vaccination law was successfully repealed. After it's abolishment, towns such as a Leicester, did away with vaccination altogether, and experienced much LOWER levels of smallpox than those places that still persisted with high vaccination levels. Further, countries such as Australia and Russia, were experiencing much LESS smallpox, with little or no vaccination, than places where vaccination rates were still high. Ultimately, smallpox declined the world over, in both vaccinated and unvaccinated countries. Undeniable, forgive me, irrefutable (people would deny anything if they want to believe something else) proof, that the vaccine was NOT the cause of the decline of smallpox. It should be noted that 90% of the world's population NEVER HAD the vaccine!







    I write about that which I have evidence in support of.


    Polio declined all across Europe, in vaccinated and UNVACCINATED countries, alike. Explanation please? Further, just like smallpox, there was a massive increase initially after the introduction of the vaccine, of some 500%, on average, in the US.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2009
  8. hammockmonkey

    hammockmonkey Well-Known Member

    This maybe true, however I have noticed a circular trend in the posting of theories questioning vaccines, evolution and god. My money is on someone posting on evolution, it's been a while.
     
  9. Crue-K

    Crue-K Well-Known Member

    There quite possibly be a small amount of truth in this article, however I would deem this more a further example of a 'fear culture' that exists within all forms of media within the US. I think US citizens are bombarded with TV and other forms of media that highlight what is wrong, dangerous etc.

    Although slightly off topic, an example of this is; The US government and Washington elites that aggressively ramp up ... a climate of fear in order to suppress democratic rights in the US itself. .... panic and constant fear of "terrorism threats" among US citizens.
     
  10. aoeu

    aoeu Well-Known Member

    MeAndYou, it was a definite Devil's Advocate argument... But TheAM seems to believe smallpox DID vanish on its own.
     
  11. shades

    shades Staff Alumni

    The reason for the initial increase in polio (and I'm assuming smallpox as well has to do with the amount of vaccine given and in which form, injections or oral tablets), there was a slight increase initially with a few death because of the polio vaccine due to the delivery system (injection) and amount of vaccine. Initially they were unsure how much was sufficient and it did lead to some deaths.

    However, there are TEN ARTICLES listed under polio vaccine (I don't know how to link) in which it is clearly stated that polio has all but been eliminated in countries which use the vaccine. It stopped world wide initially because
    of the widespread use (not just in the U.S., although mostly) of the vaccine.

    Also, a vaccine was introduced to prevent influenza during WWII to prevent
    an outbreak such as occurred after WWI (the Spanish Flu, one of the deadliest ever) for which there was no vaccine.

    Vaccination is also highly effective against measles (Wikipedia again)!! AND PLEASE NOTE- After Nigeria decided to stop injections due to religious reasons, the rate of measles rose sharply.

    The vast amount of material available support vaccination, but as I stated before, I believe they should continue to explore whether the heavy metals used in these vaccinations are causing the incidents of autism to increase. So far, statistics appear to indicate support of this theory.


    ***Please note CAPS are not meant as shouting! I cannot figure out how to italicize, so I use caps.

    ***Also, I am usually a conspiracy minded individual, but I just don't see the data to back up the op claim.
     
  12. MeAndYou

    MeAndYou Well-Known Member

    Yea i see that now lol I apologize. For some reason i thought you were implying "lets not take vaccines cause god will cure us". :hugtackles:

    It is true though that you cant argue with the data. It does seem that smallpox began its remission before the vaccine. I am not at a position to declare whether this was Gods will or something else entirely, or a combination of both, or what. But it is def. interesting and as stated previously, begs the question of how relevant these particular vaccines are to us today? Do we really need them?
     
  13. aoeu

    aoeu Well-Known Member

    Smallpox is an irrelevant vaccine today - but that's it. Every other disease is present somewhere and could rapidly spread into the population. If we stop vaccinating, it will take a while for diseases to ramp up to prior levels... But it will get there, specifically after the previously vaccinated population dies and there's a big wide world full of non-immune individuals.

    Good game, really.

    [These fellows produced the only scientific research linking vaccines to autism. Perhaps it would be a bad idea to stop vaccinating on their research.]
     
  14. me1

    me1 Well-Known Member

    Funny, orthodox theory on polio is that it is caused by a virus harboured assymptomatically in 90% of the population. I do not believe that polio is an infectious disease caused by a virus, but taking the official theory as fact how would it 'rapidly spread' into the population?!? Also, why did polio decline all across europe in BOTH vaccinated and UNVACCINATED countries?




    Whooping cough is at a long time high in Australia, and probably other developed countries, such as the UK and US, right now, despite (or more likely because of) high vaccination rates. The national average being 95%, which is said to be the magic number that produces 'herd-immunity', another clearly fabricated concept. What is your basis for the above claim?

    http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/_bpost_1598/Whooping_cough_lies,_ad_infinitum


    Humourously, it was lower in the nineties when vaccination rates were 'tragically' low.












    There are plenty of studies if you care to open your eyes and look at them. There are loads on the following link:

    http://www.fourteenstudies.org/ourstudies.html

    Here is the first:

     
  15. hammockmonkey

    hammockmonkey Well-Known Member

  16. The_8th_Wonder

    The_8th_Wonder senior Member

    I can't even read it because some annoying pop-up comes up and blocks out the entire screen which I can't figure out how to close. Vaccinations have worked for me so I am in support of them.
     
  17. Zurkhardo

    Zurkhardo Well-Known Member

    It's basic medical sense my friend.

    Bacterium, as well as virus especially, often tend to mutate or become resistant to certain vaccines and/or medicines. They mutate and sometimes render certain vaccines obsolete (hence we we're always working on news one). Polio declined among unvaccinated people in Europe as well for the same reason small pox didn't wipe out all the Native Americans: as more people build a resistance to the disease over time (or in this case by vaccination) it's pool for infection, and thus mutation and virulence, dwindles along with the illness itself.

    It also depends on the demographic. The 'high incidence' of Whooping cough in the US is limted to children under 10 who haven't been vaccinated (93% of cases are in this age group). The same goes for Austrailia's outbreak.

    My biggest issue in these debats with you concerns the epistemic bias inherent in your logic. What makes your sources, which are largely fringe regardless of any Phds or doctorates some may have, superior to ours, which including an overwhelming majority of the medical community? We're basing our counterpoints on scientic studies just as you are purportedly doing and yet you seem to regard these sources as lies or fallacies at every turn.
     
  18. me1

    me1 Well-Known Member

    http://www.vaccines.me/articles/vvjak-whooping-cough-pertussis-in-the-fully-vaccinated.cfm

    "Of the 18 students in the recent Cobb cluster, 17 were properly immunized with five doses of DTaP vaccine, which protects against diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis (sic), health officials said... "
     
  19. Zurkhardo

    Zurkhardo Well-Known Member

    That still doesn't prove anything. Vaccines aren't always guaranteed to work, as stated later on in the article. Every cure has it's uncurable, as well as factors such as poor communication, flaws, etc. Just because vaccines didn't work for 17 people doesn't mean they haven't saved millions nor that they don't exist.
     
  20. me1

    me1 Well-Known Member

    It was not an 'initial increase', it was the theme for an entire period up to the successful repeal of the compulsory vaccination law. (in the case of smallpox) As for polio, it is on record, i.e. testimony in congress, that polio cases were reclassified after the introduction of the polio vaccine and resultant upsurge in incidence, to exclude all bar those cases that lasted for over 60 days, i.e the most severe. Also, in the background, DDT was quietly withdrawn. This had a very positive effect on the incidence stats as you can imagine. Polio vaccine continues to cause outbreaks of polio in India and Pakistan (!) Although, I would imagine eventually they will probably be renamed Acute Flacid Paralysis, so as to be able to declare another 'victory' for modern medicine.


    People connected to vaccination can 'clearly state' whatever they like. Without scientific evidence, i.e. a scientifically valid trial, something which has only ever been done once, their assertions are meaningless. Polio declined all across europe, many countries were completely unvaccinated.

    Ironically, flu vaccine is one of the vaccines many doctors openly declare to be worthless. Amongst it's side-effects include, the flu (!)

    Again, a scientific trial including unvaccinated control groups, is all I would take seriously as 'evidence' of something. These are not conducted. Besides, I do not subscribe to the virus-causation theory. If it is, as I believe, not true, then what looks at face-value to be positive evidence of something would take on a completely different appearance when viewed through a different set of pre-suppositions.

    The 'vast amount of material' is produced by people with a vested interest in vaccinations so this is hardly surprising.



    Interesting first point. But as proponents of vaccination tell us that an altered 'virus' is used and this self-evidently would not produce the exact same antibody response as would result from the real thing (assuming such an entity exists) would this not make the vaccine 'obsolete' from the outset? Besides, it has been known since at least the nineteen-fifties that antibody have no relationship to disease incidence.




    All you are admitting here is that smallpox and polio declined despite the vaccine. Something which is self-apparent when one considers a few simple facts: 90% of the population never had the smallpox vaccine and polio declined all across europe in vaccinated and unvaccinated countries alike.

    It the vaccine had been successful, in the case of smallpox, there should have been LESS smallpox amongst the vaccinated than the unvaccinated. The opposite was the case. The fatality rate was also higher, refuting the claim that vaccines are not supposed to prevent disease only lessen the severity of the symptoms when it occurs. Of course, by switching to this definition they destroy their own argument about a vaccine being the responsible agent in the decline and disappearence of any disease.

    This isn't true, as I pointed out with reference to CDC figures, in my other post. But, it is an often made, but completely false, claim, by proponents of vaccination. That cases, when they occur, do so amongst the unvaccinated, or largely amongst the unvaccinated. Both are false, most cases of ALL diseases occur amongst persons who have been vaccinated against that disease.

    Ignoring the fact that you did not present a source, so it is impossible to discuss the relative merits of both our sources. There is quite obviously a conflict of interest where any source that makes money out of vaccination is concerned. This has to be taken into account. Besides even sources such as the FDA admit, for example, that 99% of adverse reactions (to vaccines) are not reported by the doctors in question. Clear and undeniable evidence of the dishonesty of the medical profession. Could you, or anyone else, possibly explain WHY so many allopathic doctors have broken ranks throughout the years and openly condemned many of their own practices, such as vaccination, risking the loss of their career, freedom or even their life?



    It 'proves' that your statement was false. I have yet to see this evidence showing that 'millions of lives' have been 'saved'. But, it is yet another often repeated, but completely without substance, just so claim, made by proponents of vaccination.
     
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