The same cause has the same effect

Discussion in 'Suicidal Thoughts and Feelings' started by Rookie, Sep 18, 2013.

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  1. Rookie

    Rookie Active Member

    If the same cause has the same effect, what's the point in even trying? Everything that is happening now has already happened the same way an infinite number of times before, and will happen an infinite number of times again. If an instigating factor will have the same effect everytime it happens, aren't we all reliving our own histories? I am a big believer in the perpetual big bang - big crunch - big bang theorum. And if the big bang is the event that sets all events in motion, then surely if it happens again, the universe will repeat itself in the exact same way all over again. How many times would I have battled depression in the past? And how many more times will it repeat itself? Infinitely! Thus, I am an infinite failure. I have no free will, because I am simply repeating every choice that I have already made in the past. My life is a predetermined black hole of loneliness and despair, and if this has caused me to kill myself in a previous itteration of the universe, how can I change that? My intelligence is my curse; it leads me to conclusions of perpetual cycles of a depressing life, and seeing as all that will happen, has already happened, I am depressed to know that my thoughts and my actions are just recycling of cosmic energy. These days I do not see the point in trying if I cannot affect my life, as it has already been set in motion by the same cause that created the universe we know today.
     
  2. msh

    msh Member

    Yes I believe that life is predetermined. More accurately it is a 'deterministic chaos' (in the mathematical sense of the word chaos)
    Everything you will do, become is predetermined. But that doesn't mean you know what it is.
    It is a system with so many parameters and degrees of freedom that it is impossible to tell what the outcome is. Therefore, there is no way you can predict that your future will be filled with loneliness and despair. All you can conclude about these perpetual cycles is your life experiences so far.
    Yes you cannot affect your life, you have no say in anything, but maybe all the events in the past will cause you to do certain things in the future (without you having free will) that you will actually enjoy. you know it is determined but you can't say you know WHAT is determined.
    Why do you want free will anyway? Why not just go with the flow and see maybe it is predetermined that you feel happy in the future!

    I quote albert camus on his view about suicide : "Should I kill myself, or should I have a cup of coffee?"
    Both are equally valid and invalid, equally absurd.
     
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  3. Rookie

    Rookie Active Member

    What a cogent and reasoned argument! I know that I can only percieve the events that I have experienced on this current cycle, but I cannot justify continuing with something I have no control over, regardless of the (currently) imperceptible events that, although may not have occurred in this cycle, have happened in the past. Going with the flow is just not something I have ever been able to cope with, I need to feel that I have some measure of control over my life, in order for it to be a rewarding experience.
     
  4. msh

    msh Member

    You know what you are feeling can be termed as "existential crisis" or existential depression. The probem is that your brain is supposed to be hard-wired to have many effective defense mechanism developed over the course of thousands of years of evolution. These defense mechanisms simply make you "not think" about questioning the absurd and the futility of your own existence (otherwise humans would have been extinct by now!). Your problem is that you don't have those mechanisms, or you have weakened them due to substantial reflection and thinking. You are able to perceive things normal people can't even though it makes you feel bad.
    But you know what?
    Even after realizing all this your mind is still probably capable of deluding itself! They say free will is an illusion, it is a very alluring one in fact.
    I know it's hard to explain, but the deceitful mind can do wonders, you just have to wait, It has certainly worked for me!

    If knowing the truth hurts enough, you don't want to know it at all eventually.
    Logic, reason, intelligence will all be over-rided and their conclusions ruled out by our most primitive desires! And it's good! Living in oblivion!
     
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  5. Rookie

    Rookie Active Member

    Yes it is definitely an existential crisis due to reflection and over analysis. It is the way I am and the way I have always been. I find thought experiments (as favoured by famous philosphers and scientists such as plato and einstein) the only way to get through the day. The normality of day to day life is so mind numbing that I find the only way to keep myself from going into auto-pilot is to question everything. The more we learn, the less we know, and the only thing I find any interest is on pondering things which, in turn, cause depression within myself. It seems that the more I ask of myself, the worse it gets, but it is something that I am hard wired to do. The only thing that I find pleasure with anymore, are the things which end up taking that pleasure away. Unless you too think in the same thought patterns as I do, you would find this statement to be absurd.
     
  6. msh

    msh Member

    Exactly! I find your statement perfectly logical.
    you see intelligence has gotten the best of you, it has brought you nothing but misery, the deeper you dig the darker it gets.
    But ...
    I only say this because I believe I used to be in the same situation as you are and managed to get out, so here it goes ...

    Whether you realize it or not, we are animals. We all seek the same things in life, they may present themselves in different forms and manifestations but they are essentially the same things. The more we achieve those things the happier we get. All of us are ultimately looking for pleasure and happiness.

    If seeking the truth is what brings you pleasure then go for it, but clearly it has not been the case so far.

    Intelligence is nothing but a tool to make pave the way to pleasure. It doesn't change what you desire, it just helps you get there faster, easier.

    I guess what I am trying to say is that, if thinking too much makes you unhappy, you should and will find a way around it, like so many others did.

    All those philosophers you mentioned, einstein, plato, kafka, sertre,camus, kierkegard, neitzhes and many more they were all depressed but the majority did not commit suicide.

    You see, your logic is correct your assumptions are correct, your conclusions are also correct, so what is the catch? The conclusions suck! They make you unhappy.
    It took me years but I realize now that we are not here to seek the truth, to find out where we come from, where we go to, why we exist etc.

    You will never be completely free of these thoughts, you are bound to struggle with them for the rest of your life (sorry I am just being honest), but if you give it some time you will find some peace, it won't always be a 'crisis'.
     
  7. Rookie

    Rookie Active Member

    You know, this is the most intelligent conversation that I have ever had, in that, I am not the only one who understands the concepts which we are discussing. Honesty and truth is something which I value, and no matter how hard it is to hear, it is never something which requires veil, apology or evasion. Philosophy and science are my passions, but both lead me into a never ending cycle of depression, as is such with the figures we have discussed. I doubt I will ever stop questioning what I know, because my mental agility is fundamental to my understanding of who I am. Hopefully, after university, I shall find peace, or at least acceptance that my thought processes are merely what makes me, me. "The point of philosophy is to start with something so simple as not to seem worth stating; and end with something so paradoxical that no one will believe it" Bertrand Russell 1918
     
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