The seeming pointlessness of debate. - One last rant.

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by Adam, Dec 6, 2014.

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  1. Adam

    Adam SF Supporter

    This turned into a bit of my own lengthy cathartic vent. The last part probably should have gone in the let it all out section. What can I say, I am frustrated. I detest that people are not more angry.

    Debate on sites such as these are ultimately pointless. Firstly this is not really the place to truly debate. Simply because you have emotionally volatile people to start with. I often have to tone everything down and consider how it may be misconstrued. Even with my best efforts I still fail and ultimately I have given up and stick trigger and sarcasm alert warnings. Because even though people don't respond here they sure as hell send you private messages and engage in vitriol. Or alternatively want to continue the discussion with out concern for the ban hammer or causing offence to possible readers. I enjoy those, they have gone interesting places in the past.

    The question is why do you want to debate? What difference does it make? Why here of all places? The only reason I bother here is to attempt to be informative on an issue that hurts others. Or point out how people are not as powerless to effect positive change as they think they are. Although I have doubts if I even believe that any more. Most debate here seems to be an acknowledgement of disgust at an ever deteriorating world. That cheerleads psychopathy and has turned many here into marginalised victims full of self blame. As if forces beyond their control are their fault.

    “I have not found a job in six months, only ones I can find are zero hour contracts, maybe I am a failure and should just die.” Macro economics are rarely lifestyle choices mate...

    Even outside of here what is the point of debate if there is no action beyond it? If it is merely a point scoring exercise. What is achieved? I find those most open to debate are not the minds that need to be asked to reconsider, they are already open to that and are simply enjoyable to explore. If you want to wage a meaningful war though and be banned in three seconds when you point out people are not cells cultivated in a lab or rodents bred for tumours. Then go here. Although it pretty much has closed its open forum access and pruned everything off. Or go to the many other numerous equivalents that seem to be growing unchecked, condemning people to stupid deaths. Buying idiotic products as fear and hope certainly sell.

    If you want to spare children with immunodeficiencies why not have a crack at the Anti Vaccine movement, many are just painfully ill informed people. There is no sweeter debate victory than getting a parent to admit they maybe should trust their local doctor over various celebrities and politicians with no credentials what so ever.

    The other irony is people switch off to politics, there is this disconnect that it has any relevance what so ever. To their lives in the now. Yet in the next breath they say something like. “I can't get into the psych unit as there are no beds. So I am stuck with the crisis team telling me to have a nice hot bath and read a book, how is that helpful when I am suicidal?” Or “I am on a waiting list to get therapy but it could be six to nine months before I am even seen. What am I meant to do in the mean time?”

    What they don't realise, is it was the politicians of various colour ties and ideologies that dislike facts outside their tie colour ideology They were the ones that dismantled mental health services and are busy cutting services by a further 20%. Even my own CPN says there is going to be blood. Not that the media will cover this in any meaningful manner, not that the legislation that made it happen is even all that readable. The crisis team is a misnomer they are designed to keep people out of hospital. With top down pressures to only let a bed be taken if it seems truly warranted. While management ask, could that person just get a home visit instead? Mostly people that get a bed now are under section.

    It was politics that allowed the social care reform act to go through, pretty much condemning the NHS to privatisation via the back door. While simultaneously allowing government to divorce itself from any actual duty of care. It was politics that moved the pension age. It was politics that inflicted tuition fees, enslaving people to some horrendous Debt. Which wont help the abysmally low social mobility rates that existed prior. I could go on and on. But enough of that.

    Ultimately I feel meaningful debate is up against an argument you just can't win against regardless of the facts or logical arguments you attempt to make. I apparently work for Monsanto am in league with Satan, am a filthy socialist,. Am a big Pharma Shill. A disinformation agent, or working for the illuminati. At one point after failing to convince 'truthers' that chemtrails are most likely contrails. I just gave up and told them how I would logically depopulate the planet in a more efficient manner, create my serf class and rule unchallenged with my elite colleagues whilst siphoning up much of the wealth. Maybe I was a bit too detailed. Suffice it to say they thought I truly was one. Saddest thing about that conversation was private messages asking me how they could join the very people that are apparently spraying them and their children with death... I would laugh but nothing is funny any more.

    But if that is not bad enough I used to be involved with various charitable organisation which had a very clear agenda. Advocate for those who struggle to advocate for themselves. Improve mental health care, dismantle stigma and the barriers to employment. To do that you have to go into the heart of rotten politics and play the dirty game. So my debates were not just semantic ones of pointing out logical fallacies, I am doubtful many in those particular rooms would even know what one of those even was. You would think you would not need to try too hard to make a pretty solid case about the suffering of the mentally ill and how a preventative care model would be more effective than the current revolving door of fix them when they are completely broken, then turf em out to no care in the community, repeat. Until death, criminalisation or being a silent zombie occur or they bounce in and out of crisis. Or they get better on their own which you can add to the success rate. If we treated cancer that way there would be outrage!

    You would think it would be easy to make the point that the military that fought in wars this government signed off on, would be deserving of some accommodation beyond being dumped into madness and street life on return and then invariably prison, as homelessness is pretty much a crime here.

    You would also think it would be simple to explain, that a police cell is not a good place of safety for some one in the midst of psychosis. While Mr punches old ladies in face screams obscenities, kicks at his door and engages in pig insults not far down the hall.

    You would also think that any one with even the semblance of a sodding brain would grasp the enormity of putting young teens in adult, mixed, psychiatric units!

    But no, fuck humanity, decency or common sense. The only thing that matters is, how much will that cost? What savings can be made?

    So much of my time was spent making my best attempt at economic arguments, demonstrating false economy. Whilst aware I am talking about human lives, with feelings and needs and rendering them to numbers. I can only look back on it as a soul killing experience, and even if we did make headway, by a hairs breadth. We would then see an article in the Daily Mail or Sun with headlines, about the number of mentally ill that have gone on to kill people. Or mental illness being used as an excuse to not seek work. Yet again undermining everything.

    How can you have a meaningful debate any more when tabloid catch phrases parroted in repeat shape minds against science and reason and simply feed bigotry and hate. As hate and fear sell. Certainly provokes a nice number of clicks and ad revenue. I don't know what has happened to journalistic standards but I can only assume it has been bought and sold with rest of the social fabric that is not cost effective.

    It is rendered even more pointless when further discussion is tarnished by an entirely dismissive word, Like Lefty or right-winger like both words hold any meaningful substance and instead merely become an excuse to address nothing and resort to simplistic stereotypes. If you want to break out the popcorn I suggest in any discussion you ask the person to define their terms. So if you are called a socialist. Simply ask them what is Socialism? What variety are you so against? If you are told, down with capitalism, ask the same, what is capitalism? What variety are you so against and what would you replace it with? It is fascinating to watch a complex spectrum of meaning be distilled down to Disney level caricatures of themselves. It used to be funny but now it fills me with a dread for the future.

    All interest in lesser issues has waned and it now all comes down to the outright assault on democracy as we had known it be, and the reduction in quality of life we are seeing.

    Critical thinking seems brutally on the decline, science itself is under assault, as external forces bend outcomes to suit funding interests. Think Tanks with obvious biases masquerade as independent sources that cite their own agenda driven studies. Wading through the soup is a nightmare now. Slap the word study on it and it may as well be taken as gospel to some. Documentaries now are full of mermaids and sharks that don't exist. Nature documentaries that do exist are often staged. Hollywood versions of viewing the world feed only distorted views of reality. Stupidity has become the new route to celebrity. Intellect is a thing to be mocked and derided yet the fruits of science are the very thing that lets people wage wars of words across the planet. How can any one be informed on anything when education is not about learning but jumping instead through rote memory tests just to get the magical mark to meet targets and make league tables. All the while few are taught how to discern fact from fiction while simultaneously fed lies and propaganda from everywhere.

    Pointing out reality makes you a kill joy, or a negative person. I am often called a cynic but then what else is there when you cut away all the self delusion. Little is left but a self destructive insanity that boggles the mind. It all seems fatally absurd, and when reason is undermined in favour of rhetoric and unbending ideology driven by short term 'I want it now' cannibalistic thinking, that only benefits the few. I can only wake up each morning and marvel at how we are not all dead yet from something entirely misguided. I wake up glad I do not have any children to fear for, and no vested stake in the future of this planet.

    TL;DR -

    "The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." - Albert Einstien
  2. Cicada 3301

    Cicada 3301 Staff Member Safety & Support SF Supporter

    Thank you for posting this thread. I agree with much that was said and have found your second paragraph to be very true on this site. I find myself toning things down or not speaking at all so as not to spark a shitstorm. Im surprised no one has replied; this is one of only a handful of threads that i have found myself agreeing with on most points.

    "How can any one be informed on anything when education is not about learning but jumping instead through rote memory tests just to get the magical mark to meet targets and make league tables." and i thought that was put brilliantly and reflects the education system in the UK
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