Want to see the true face of western democracy?

Discussion in 'Opinions, Beliefs, & Points of View' started by Summer.Rain, Mar 13, 2009.

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  1. Summer.Rain

    Summer.Rain Well-Known Member

    Western democracy or USA that "fights for freedom" is roating
    from the inside out for long long time, and while it says
    that human right are to be protected, the truth is the the USA
    goverment using ignorance of its citizens...

    while many of you never actualy looked for deep information
    about how goverments are formed and work, i would like to give
    you few basic examples which is the base of most things about capitalisem.

    It all begins many many years ago, before the first money appeard
    people used gold to exchange it for the things they need
    for example, you were a blacksmith that make tools
    and then someone comes to you asking for a tool
    what will you ask for exchnage? you can ask for something
    this client have (for example food), but what if you got enough food?
    And that is how gold came to the market, the client sold the food
    he made for gold, and then he offers this gold for your tools.

    After many years, there was a king, the king said "enough to trade gold"
    as not many had it anyways, so he offered "paper" for it
    the paper was in fact sort of insurance, if you have it, that means
    you have something valiuble, and the king himself protects this valiue.
    So you give your gold to the king, and recive papers for it
    then with those papers you have the full right to buy things others
    have as they know those papers are sort of gold, and if they want they
    can go and ask the king to give them gold for that paper (as much as it worth)

    and that is how money appeard.
    Now lets see what we have today, for example Dollars ($).
    the capitalisem is based on the enciant law of currancy, that means
    that by law, you have a full right to take the money u have, to go to the
    goverment, and to demmand gold for it. But here comes the first
    dark secret that your goverment dont want you to know!
    they will not give you any gold!!!
    (Every goverment have gold, the more gold it have, the richer it is!
    USA have the gold of some goverments, and it protects it.)

    now you may ask yourself, "why do i need gold?"
    well, gold NEVER looses its valiue, its valiue only rising with time!
    and this gold is much cheaper then what you see in the shops
    So for example, you take 10000$ and excnage them for lets say 250g of gold
    even if the economy of your goverment will crush and die
    you will still be 10000$ rich no metter where you live.

    now a second secret your goverment dont want you to know:
    the top elit (the riches people in the world) invest in gold.
    most of them invest EVERY SINGEL dollar in it, why?
    because it is eternal invesment that never dies!

    now lets take for example the corrent crysis:
    Lets take a poor govermet such as Ukraine
    the local corrency lost 100% of its valiue due to the crysis
    which means that the people in here lost half of all they had!
    But not all of them, those who invested in gold are still as rich as
    they were before the crysis as the crysis dont effect gold!
    And they keep thair gold to themselfs and not "protected' by the govermet
    which means that if the goverment dies (like in a war)
    they can take the gold and travel to a diffrent country without loosing anything.

    Now to the last part, have you ever woundered why people work
    thair whole life and end up with nothing?
    You spent so many hours working hard to get some money
    but somehow you always loose it?
    If you look at what i said about gold then every thing you spend
    you must gain 100% of it back right? You give a tool to someone
    and this someone gives you other tool (with same valiue) in excgnage.
    therefor you shouldnt loose any money, so how come you end up with nothing?

    I will tell you why...
    Lets take the gold example, you want to buy a golden ring
    thius ring cost 1000$ in its gold valiue but you pay 50,000$ because
    its the price tag on it, if you will try to sell the ring back (lets say to the powns shop) you will only get 1000$ for it, because it is its REAL vliue
    even though today they lie everywhere...
    but if you could for example exchange your 1000$ for some gold
    and then pay another 1000$ to someone to make a ring out of it
    then the ring costs its REAL valiue which is the initial valiue plus work
    and you can sell the ring for the same money you spent on it

    If you still reading (^^) then now you know how your goverment and
    the capitalist part of it is using you to make itself rich while you end up with nothing!

    this is only and overview as there are many details, you can find it all in book though...
  2. jameslyons

    jameslyons Well-Known Member

    The value of gold rarely fluctuates but it's hardly the most beneficial investment. If you have extra money to play the stock market, then, in a god year, you should have 75-80% of your investments in slow growth, stable stock and 20% in medium risk stock.

    And Capitalism has little to do with Western Democracy. That's like saying Socialism is linked to Republicanism. And most people didn't pay in gold. Using silver or copper instead.

    Moving from the gold standard has allowed much more economic growth and the credit system to flourish. Clearly we didn't put the accurate protective measures into the system. But we, and by we I mean every single nation on Earth, are all much better off than using silver coins.
  3. Summer.Rain

    Summer.Rain Well-Known Member

    Well buying and selling shares is the same as currancy really...
    but insted $ you got a paper which is a "share" of something...
    my point was about the stability, same as money, shares can die as well
    you buy shares for 50K, the thing you invested in died, u end up with 0.

    now you are right, currancy anabled the goverment to rise and become more powerfull
    but lets go back to the basics
    if the goverment dont have natural resorces (for example gold)
    then its ecconomic cant rise, yet it dose, why?
    because they use your work force, and giving you for it some papers
    hopefully, the valiue of those papers will rise, and you will gain power
    in the same way as your goverment, its like you buying shares of your country
    hopeing the valiue of them will rise... and sure sometimes it dose
    but what will happaen if it falls? you loose.

    anyways it wasnt my point...
    my point is, have you ever asked yourself why do you work for so long
    and yet you still have nothing? or have so little?
    when you work you directly effecting the goverments economy
    if you work good, the goverment gain power, but what about you?
    and how come the top elite dosnt work at all yet have it all?
    hell.. how come there are are people who never worked but they are top elite?
    as for me i got my own ideas but just try to think about it
    do you think you eat so much so that you spend so much on food?
    or maybe the food prices are way above the real valiue?
  4. jameslyons

    jameslyons Well-Known Member

    Food prices are far below their value.

    As an American who scraps just above the poverty line, I feel confident in saying that I live better than 60-70% of the world's population. North Americans, Europeans, and a few countries spread about such as South Korea, Argentina, Iran, Japan, etc. have ridiculously luxurious lifestyles. Lifestyles which are based on the exploitation of other nations.

    When somebody works as rarely as I, when somebody has plenty of time to loaf about in various pursuits ... I don't know. I'm just like those elites, but without as much money.
  5. Issaccs

    Issaccs Well-Known Member

    Whats your point?

    That currency is based on faith?
    Who gives a shit.
    I did some general labour for a factory this week, I do not want my pay in the womens underwear they produce.
  6. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry, but I can't trust a man without a spell checker.

    Really, I have one symptom of my depression I'm pretty blatant with. I don't give a shit. I can't take my gold with me when I die!
  7. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry, but I can't trust a man without a spell checker.

    Really, I have one symptom of my depression I'm pretty blatant with. I don't give a shit. I can't take my gold with me when I die, anyways!
  8. Summer.Rain

    Summer.Rain Well-Known Member

    Right well... i dont have much time now so all i will say is
    that obviously you missed my point, like TOTALY...

    Lets try to simplefy it a bit more for some of you =P
    Question: Most people while working thair whole life, end up with nothing
    eventualy... why?

    Now i can undarstand that we do spent money on things that are used
    once and gone after that, like food...
    But do we really spend our whole money on it? No...
    Ok but what about capital? capital is something you invest in and its price
    should rise with time, but how come that if you buy a car, and want to resell
    it after 1 month, you automaticly loose... from 10% to up to 50% of its price...

    There are some very intersting theoris on the net, im not saing they all are true
    but some of them are logical, for example, there is this idea that car manufactors
    actualy designe the cars so that after, lets say 5 years, it start to brake down
    so much that you really MUST to buy a new one...

    And about my spelling, dont try to be smartass..
  9. Issaccs

    Issaccs Well-Known Member

    Its because old cars break down and people like to have new shit, not someone elses seconds when they can.

    If people cared about the money that much they'd buy a car with a a hundredthousand miles on the clock with an MOT for less than a thousand pounds and run it until it failed its next MOT in a year or twos time.

    Nothing forced people to buy a new car off the lot for 10k and unless theyre an idiot they already realise its going to go down, prices are like tht because people are willing to pay.

    I still dont see what your point is.
  10. Summer.Rain

    Summer.Rain Well-Known Member

    If you would of read more then just the line about cars you could undarstand...

    Again, question:
    How come people work their whole life and still end up with nothing?

    think about it, give it a good thought, and maybe you will get my point...
  11. Issaccs

    Issaccs Well-Known Member

    Because they spend their money.
  12. Summer.Rain

    Summer.Rain Well-Known Member

    Ok you know what... i guess you are not the right person to think about it..
  13. Issaccs

    Issaccs Well-Known Member


    Heres something to think about.
    Jonny earns £50 in a weekday.
    He then spends £50 at the pub.

    what is Jonny left with. Even you can figure that out.
    What point are you trying to make beyond people don't save.
  14. Overruled

    Overruled Active Member

    ... Did this guy just say gold will always be valuable? That it will always be worth the same amount of money?

    Gold prices change. If the world collapses, your gold will be worth nothing. The only eternally valuable resources in the world are food and water. Gold is neither of these.

    Learn things before you type, and fix your spelling errors.
  15. Zurkhardo

    Zurkhardo Well-Known Member

    The world economic system used to be based on a Gold Standard, which we subsequently scrapped after WWII.

    Why? Because it was inefficient and unmaleable.

    As for your question Summer, it seems you're alluding to a neo-Marxist argument about how people sell their labor but recieve nothing in return, due to upper-class exploitatio through their capital control?
  16. Summer.Rain

    Summer.Rain Well-Known Member

    thats right, but my idea is not based on Marxist theorys or whetever...
    i came up with my own idea on this one

    the thing is that currancy value is based moustly on gold
    gold is used, in a way, as a BANK for a country, as a country cant really
    have a bank account... if a country for example recive more money then it spends
    it spends this money to "buy" gold, the more gold the country have
    the more powerfull courancy it have. if for example the caountry ran out of
    budget, it can print money, as all countrys do, but the problem here is that
    the money must be support by gold value, if there is no gold behind the pronted money
    the money dont have value which results in inflation.

    the gold price is ALWAYS static, but the value of the money you buy gold with changing, so its NOT the price that is changing!!!
    if you invest 1000$ in gold, this gold will cost 1000$ or 8.6K Grivnas (UKR) or 4.2K Shekel (ISR)
    If USA will be nuked for example, you can always "sell" you gold for its static value!

    If YOU will find a gold mine, its value will be static all over the world
    for example, you WONT be able to change the selling price of your gold
    but you will be able for example, to "give" this gold to your country
    which will make this countrys courancy stronger, and if its courancy stronger
    your monthley payment will be higher, and market prices for things will be lower.
    Or you can "sell" your gold to a diffrent country, for example you sell all your gold
    for 100Mil $, this 100Mil will only be 100Mil in the USA (if you sell to USA)
    in a diffrent country you will be even richer (or poorer) depends on the country!

    and Overruled, english is NOT my native language SO STFU already!
  17. hammockmonkey

    hammockmonkey Well-Known Member

    But that's not true at all. Countries, like the USA, borrow money from other countries, like China, to spend on stuff like bombs. They are not "buying gold from China" they are buying currency.

    Money is fictious, the USA operates at like a $2 trillion (trade) deficient [this is not the budget]. The gold we hold in reserve I don't believe covers that, but I have no idea how much gold the US has.

    If a country tries to "print" their way out of a recession then you get inflation, that is the currency losses its value because there is so much of it out there. What happened to germany after WWI.

    The money isn't backed by gold at all, that has stopped. The USA stopped backing their money with gold under Nixon in 1970 (to 72 I don't remember the year).
  18. Summer.Rain

    Summer.Rain Well-Known Member

    Ok maybe you are right and im just not updated
    but if money is not backed up by gold, then what?

    The fact USA took money from China, or in my case Ukraine borrowed
    money from Russia, sure its not gold, its money, but remember that it is NOT
    our money, therfore the country that gave us this money got the gold
    if you know something about shares trading then it is somewhat simmilar
    with one excaption, you cant take over a country by buying it...

    If for example i had 200Bil dollars, and gave USA 10Bil because they asked for it
    i didnt done it because im a nice guy, i done it because i get something from it
    things like more money, better trade (or diplomatic relations)
    or maybe i even "invest" by movieng my corporations to that country...
    or things like that

    anyways, my question, what is backing up the courancy if not gold?
    land? natural resources? amount of citizens? ratings?
    it cant be land, as for example Israel is small yet rich country
    it cant be natural resources, as Japan dont have any basicly
    ratins are just ratings...
    maybe citizens? Japan got LOTS of them and it is a very rich country
    but then... Israel got only 6 Mil and it is richer then India...
  19. hammockmonkey

    hammockmonkey Well-Known Member

    What money is based on is the "economy" and it gets incredibly complicated to try and figure out exactly what money is based on. The US dollar is, at it's simplest level, based on the US economy. Now, I cannot tell you how it is based on the economy.

    You buy bonds at a certain price that the US government says they will pay back with interest. So, you'd "buy" 10 billion dollars of bonds from the US government which they agree they will pay back in 25 years at 3% interest. This is basically how government bonds work.

    The stock market, stocks of companies have two different values: they have their actual value, and they have their market value. These two do not equal, and they are very, very difficult to calculate.

    People who work in the stock market will tell you that there is no way companies are actually worth what their stock price is, but that doesn't lower the stock price.

    What holds the world together? Capitialist Ideology. There is money out there and it is making more money. How? Doesn't really matter, it's just happening. (There is a how, but sometimes this how is a lie and that doesn't necessarily matter).
  20. Summer.Rain

    Summer.Rain Well-Known Member

    I am somewhat confused from the things you said...
    economy IS money, and money IS economy
    it CANT effect the value of the curracy as in fact
    currancy is the one that effects economy

    what is economy? it is a rotating cycle of money IN the country
    with excaptions of Import and Export and foregin investments.

    But you cant really say that the value of a countrys currancy is based on its
    exports and imports, sure foregin invesment dose help but it is minor...

    And about the shares part, you are right, and if we take USA as example
    looks like its market value is MUCH higher then it is in reallity...
    And in fact USA got HUGE depts to many countrys (europe and far east)
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