Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by Bob26003, Dec 23, 2006.
Well, was it?
Hi, Bob.. well, you know, I have always felt that the movies I have watched over many years and the problems with the Mideast.. seemed to predict our future.. and that anything could happen here, unfortunately.. I use to think so that if it happened in Israel, and you know, all over the world, this has happened.. why not America.. it already happend before here, with the World Trade Center, that was a warning, I always thought, of something to happen.. a test maybe.. America may have been asleep.. you know the story of the frog in the kettle..sitting in the kettle, cool water, then the heat turns up a little and a little at a time and he doesn't realise it and so on.. then no more frog..
Well, we were all affected by 9/11 very much.. Of course, these guys, who did this, had opportunity... they took flight lessons.. and planned and planned for the time.. however, this subject is very difficult for many people possibly to discuss.. the thing is, that it brought the world maybe a little closer as it impacted many people here.. from many different cultures, faiths, etc.. even still for all of us...difficult.. violated.. yes, it can happen anywhere.. in the world as we know.. nobody ever thought it would happen here.. we are not exempt from problems happening here..
I have family on the east coast.. in several states... my cousin, in Chicago, was suppose to be on the United airline, and changed her schedule, and she was home.. she knew the people who went down...and my other cousin, in the service and it is a very sad, difficult time.. knew people also, and sent me pictures and shared some poems that were heart wrenching by somebody in the Army, Marines.. my other 2 cousins were in one of those buildings, in New York and Washington DC and I checked every day to see if on survivor list.. and Thank God, was turned up on the survivor list...
So, what do you think? and what is your point? It happened and that means it can happen anywhere... as we all know.. more than anybody realizes or knows.. It still deeply affects many people here and in the world.. especially those heroes flight 47, I think.. something like that..forget at the moment.. who took over... brings tears to my eyes everytime.. and all those people suffering..
You want to discuss the Government? I know this is the soapbox to just say whatever... yeah, it sucks sometimes.. lot of times.. but, you know what? it takes a person, to try to change it.. and others, if they will get involved and do something about it.. make change happen... doesn't do any good to debate the subject unless one is willing to start working on making changes..
I heard something once on the radio or tv while getting ready for work.. forget exactly.. angered me.. President Carter then.. so I spoke to a couple friends at work, and one heard the same thing...
I wrote a letter to the White House to Jimmy Carter about what was said and 4 of us signed this petition.. the senator for my state was asked to call us and find out where "we" heard this controversial subject.. (yeah, I use to write alot of letters and helped others write letters) the one friend, who wasn't sure, about signing this letter, was called at 6 AM from the senator at the time, Mark Hatfield, who was in Wash. DC.. Ohhhhh.. she was a little upset.. but somebody finally listened and cared enough to check it out and follow up on it.. They couldn't find my number and the news were wrong in reporting what they did..
I was really shocked that it made it to the president.. really.. himself.. and he asked Senator Mark Hatfield to get in touch with me.. and they couldn't find my number so was able to find my friend's number..then asked to call the Senator Hatfield..so, you know, if you want change, it starts with a person, speaking out.. and others may support..
The government is not perfect by all means.. but it also takes people to speak up to try to make changes.
May I ask, are you serious about changing things that you disagree with or do you just want to debate the politics and other.. i love good discussions and debates but I also believe in trying to find solutions and work on changes... it won't happen overnight and it depend on your reason maybe.. and why?
There are two good books to read.. Walk Across America.. forget the second name but related to this walk . this young man felt maybe the same way.. regarding America and the government. somebody challenged him to check it out first.. so he did and walked across America and what he came to realize.. Good books.. just a suggestion but it helped me to understand alot more about people and different situations..
Change is what it is all about too.. may take time..alot of time but it begins with the people who start speaking out to make changes and getting others involved maybe to help..
No. It wasn't.
I will say, however, that the inability of the American government to recognise the warning signs and manage the aftermath was diabolical.
My gut feeling, for what it's worth, is that no it was not an inside job.
The political precedent of deliberate deception does exist though as in the Nazi's intentional burning of their own parlimentary building, the Reichstag, in 1933 ( which laid the groundwork for the once despised Nazi's to be swept into power. )
Also, the so-called Gulf of Tonkin Incident ( August 1964 ) during president Johnson's administration was possibly a fabricated "disaster", or at the very least, an extreme over-reaction by US naval forces ( only two destroyers, USS Maddox and USS Turner Joy were involved ). The politcal response to this incident was the passing by Congress of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution which cleared the way for President Johnson to vastly increase America's military involvement in South East Asia.
There is even the theory that during WWII, President Roosevelt knew in advance of the impending attack upon Pearl Harbor but refused to take action in order to use public outrage to influence Congress to issue a declaration of war upon the Axis powers.
Although evidence does exist some of these theories are admittedly hard to prove conclusively ( hey, I'm not a professional historian, I'm just a guy with a computer :wink: ) but America does have a verifiable record of being totally ruthless if it suits its political puposes.
Does anyone remember the infamous Tuskegee Syphillis Experiments that were performed by the precursor of our trusted Centers for Disease Control ?
During the 1960's the CIA's experiments with mind- altering substances ( Project MK-ULTRA ) cannot be dismissed as urban myth.
One of the most devious, indeed almost satanic, examples of America's moral lapses took place shortly after WWII. During the war Japan had established centers near POW camps to conduct medical experiments upon prisoners. The prisoners were Chinese, Filipino, Australian, New Zealanders and.....American.
The most infamous of these centers was referred to as Unit 731 and was under the authority of a Japanese doctor named Ishii Shiro. I will spare you the gory details ( Google Unit 731 if you want to read about mind-boggling cruelty ) but I will say that under Dr. Shiro autopsies were not performed post-mortemuke:
General Douglas MacArthur , who after Japan's surrender, acting as
the Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers and with full knowledge of Unit 731's crimes against humanity granted immunity
to Dr. Shiro. Apparently Dr. Shiro's research into the effects of biological and chemical agents upon living human beings was simply too valuable to be discarded. Essentially, the United States government not only failed to punish this medically trained sociopath....he was actually
rewarded for his crimes against humanity.
All this is to say that until compelling evidence is brought forth to implicate our own government in the 911 disaster I will have to reserve judgement but as the previous examples illustrate, governments will often toss their sacred moral codes into the mud if it suits their purposes.......and America :unclesmil is no exception.
No it was not.
PS: Whats up with all the politics and conspiracy stuff you are posting?
there are a heck of a lot of holes in the official theory and questions the people simply refuse to answer.
the offical theory says that when the planes impacted the buildingd they knocked off or damaged enough fireproofing that the resutant fire, heated and weakended the steal support collums, the floor sagged and pulled in the outer collums and that is what eventually lead to a cascading collapse, the problem I have with this theory is that it sounds like a fluke, yet it happened twice, on the same day, I mean what are the odds that the second impact would also do just the right kind of damage to bring the second tower down.
then there is the collapse of building 7 which had nothing wrong with it other than a few small fires a a handfull of floors, and there is video of the guy saing that they "pulled" the building.
There there is the fact that jet fule doesn't burn hot enough to melt or even significantly weaken steel, and that everything else combustable in the building would've burnt at an even lower temperature.
Then there is the fact that they broke apart, removed, sold and shipped off the wreakage so fast that they broke the law by doing it, they were supposed to hold on to it for I think it is 2 years incase a public invesetigation is launched.
Then there is the fact that in all the pictures of the attach on the pentagon there is no wreakage of a plane to be seen, and that with all the hundreds of security cameras, they've yet to release any footage showing an actual plane - why it's not like a 747 is classified?
And how about the fact that the passengers on the plane reputedly used their mobiles to make phone calls home, yet you can't use a mobile phone on a commercial flight at cruising speed and altitude, as you pass cell towers too quickly for handoff to occure.
Oh and don't forget the perfect symetrical demolition of the buildings, with all the rubble landing neatly on it's own foot print.
Oh and LOL the PASSPORT of the terrorist, the one that flew out of the plane on impact, and then stayed in the aire for a few hours without any getting damaged whatsoever to eventually land neatly on top of the rubble of the destructed buildings, for someone to find, in pristene comdition, and then!!!! turns out that guy that passport supposedly belonged to was alive and well and living in pakistan - the bbc found him.
Oh and where George Bush said that he watched the first plane hit building 1 on tv, even tho there was no footage of that found until a long time later.
I don't want to believe that this is a false flag scenario, although after the events in new orleans I releaised that the government really will just sit and do nothing and watch as thousands of people suffer and die, so I guess it is possible, but I'd rather someone just explain scientifically to me, how it almost certainly (taking probability into account) happened, until then I can't really make my mind up.
imo it was an "outside" job, which was allowed to happen thru lack of "governmental intelligence"...or is that a contradiction in terms??:blink:
I don't know
I wouldn't be surprised if it was, though.
No it wasn't
But I think the attitude of "it can't happen here" played a large role. Intelligence was poor and there was a lack of action to follow up on leads that existed. The US had its guard down and did not take the treat serioiusly. Hopefully the lessen has been learned and we wont have to deal with the death and destruction again. Even though there was a lack of action and poor intelligence, we should not lose sight of who attacked us.
yes, the government sucks, just watch "XXX - state of the union"
Has anyone seen 'Loose Change'? Not a bad documentary, raises some very interesting questions.
Thats just a movie. So it really has no relivance to your oppinion.
and LeaveMeAlone, i will agree with all of your theroies, No jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to melt steel, and all those other things.
I am not sure if anyone has noticed, but remember that plain that crashed into the fields in Pensilvania i think? Who has heard about that again?
I know that this will sound kind of stupid for basing almost all of my beleifs on this, but if you watch the South Park episode where Cartman goes into the consporicy theories, then you can see ( i hope ) that he is right on in most of the areas. buuuuut thats just me
so The Other Guy cant base his opinion on a movie but its ok if you base yours on an episode of south park? :blink:
In my opinion they either we're too arrogant to think it could happen, or they allowed it to happen to start a nice little war, and put our beloved president as a "Hero"
I think it was a terrorist attack combined with an inside job. I think a criminal element in the upper echelons of american power knew the attack was going to happen, realised they could use the attack to help achieve political goals, and subsequently created the conditions to let it happen. Since I don't believe that a skyscraper can collapse via fire, I must conclude that pre-placed explosives brought the building down.
I've watched Loose Change TG123. Recently watched '911 mysteries' which asked some significant questions too.
I thought the recent BBC '911 conspiracy files' programme was a poor excuse for impartial investigative journalism.
Can I just point out that terrorist attacks hit Madrid, London and the Phillipines, so wether or not it was an inside job in NY we have a real problem with the middle east. God only knows how we sort it out but something has to be done.
One persons terrorist is another persons freedom fighter.
give me a break....
some idiot with no self esteem and no confidence dreams up a goof-ball theory thats on par with the "fbi's mind control device."
this is the sickness that is liberalism, its the cause de celeb, something to grab onto, because so many have nothing in their lives going for them. Instead of accepting the truth, its 'chic' to say 'i'm different, i KNOW it was an inside job, I KNOW the President is a neo-nazi gestapo goose stepping facist who wants to see the children of iraq drowning in blood, nah ne nah ne nah.' Its a easy way to say you're different, an savante elitist.
I am in no way saying President is a hero, rather that he hides behind them to further his own agenda.
Well the facts in Southpark were real, and supported facts
Well, we know that that two of the supposed Hijackers were living with an FBI informant. We know that the FBI had these guys under survaillence. We know that the agent in Arizona tried to get her superiors to take action regarding these guys taking flight school and was stonewalled on numerous numerous occasion. We know that those planes flew around for hours in the sky. We know that hundreds of times a yr. fighter jets are scrambled for the slightest deviation in flight path. We know that conveniently most of the damn fighter jets were in Alaska on some training excercise. We know to execute the turn and hit the Pentagon from the side that was being refurbished and had been primarily empty, would take a highly skilled pilot. We know George Bush Sr. was chilling with the Bin Ladens while this all went down. We know that while all flights were grounded the Bin Ladens and friends were secretly flown back to Saudia Arabia.
This thing stinks to high heaven.
BTW.......... You keep drinking the kool aid ZEEV. Its probably easier than thinking :tongue: