We're dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by Pasta08, Jan 20, 2012.

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  1. Pasta08

    Pasta08 Banned Member

    I have come to the conclusion as an American we seem to be dammed if we do dammed if we don't. We get bashed for wars and not minding our own buisness and then we get blasted when we try and mind our own business IE WW2 or Hatie or the Japan Earthquke/Tusamie Anyone else noticed this it is slightly annoying i know my goverment fucks up a lot but seriously....
     
  2. Tmacster1

    Tmacster1 Well-Known Member

    Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

    Well though out post... America the beautiful country I live in has pretty much fallen apart. The US is in so much debt it's not even funny... I also don't want to think about the politics behind it... Our country is somewhat damned in a way..

    Trevor,
     
  3. havoclash88

    havoclash88 Banned Member

    Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

    The problem isn't whether or not the United States intervenes in foreign affairs. The problem is when we intervene and why.

    The United States is the most powerful country on the planet; militarily, economically and socially. Whether or not that will remain the case in the near future is irrelevant. As the most powerful country on the planet, we (and I use 'we' for the sake of brevity) do possess certain. . .responsibilities that cannot be ignored for the sake of "non-interventionism." Anyone who denies that is either a complete isolationist or simply can't see the larger picture.

    What about intervention to prevent a famine? A genocide? to remove a cruel and murderous dictator?
    I think not intervening in these sorts of human rights issues makes us an accessory to them.
    (And don't even get me started on the atrocious history the United States has in that area.)

    Let's say that Iran actually does develop a nuclear weapon and then displays hostile intent towards another country. Do you believe that in such a case the US should intervene to prevent the loss of tens of thousands of lives?
    I do, and I'm a progressive liberal who's been staunchly against both the Iraq and Afghanistan "wars on scariness" since their beginnings.

    However, in the political and social climate that the US currently finds itself in, I don't think that the reasons for intervening would be so noble; at least not under the surface. I think the US government would see it as an opportunity to establish yet more bases in the region and further expand the American Empire (and that's what the United States has become since the post-WWII era began, an Empire).

    I wish we didn't have to recognize borders. I don't see humans as Americans, Chinese, Saudi Arabian, English or whatever. I see us as humans. But as the world currently exists, my feelings are ultimately irrelevant. I can wish until rainbows fly out of my ass, but it won't change a thing. Humanity remains fragmented. Some of those fragments possess more resources than the others. To hoard those resources while those in other countries suffer the hand of fate, and in the name of non-interventionism, is irresponsible and non-befitting of any major world power.

    Don't even get me started on China.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2012
  4. Underground

    Underground Well-Known Member

    Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

    It's life. An influential country like the USA will always have either domestic or international criticism for something it either does or does not do. The simple fact is not everyone agrees with eachother.

    I'm from the UK and either know or know of quite a lot of people who hate what the UK has done in its history, still moan about Ireland/India, or complain about the imperialism of the British Empire whilst forgetting the Empire also did a lot of good for the world in it's existence. With the USA it's similar, it does not have a completely altruistic past, they have their own history of imperialism, the killing of Natives, the mistreatment of blacks, the Vietnam War, the shady involvements in the affairs of certain countries with bad human rights records or dictators (Pinochet), but forget the good the USA has brought to the world.. the involvement of the USA in WWII was a good thing, a lot of things were invented either by US Citizens or with their resources, etc.
     
  5. RossInZona

    RossInZona Active Member

    Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

    You're probably right, however the America-bashing I've seen seems to come from different quarters (although a lot of it is reminiscent of the typical Soviet propaganda I remember from the Cold War years).

    I think the main thing that causes a lot of the world to bash America is the wanton hypocrisy behind our public policies. What we claim to believe in often differs from what we actually do in practice. On paper, we signed the Kellogg-Briand Pact (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kellogg–Briand_Pact), which essentially outlawed war as an instrument of national policy. The same principle was outlined in the UN Charter as well. We signed these documents and made them part of our law, so it stands to reason that people around the world would expect us to follow the principles therein.

    If we take an oath or sign a document promising to do something, then it's natural for people to expect us to follow it. The trouble is, in recent decades (at least since WW2), we've casually accepted the duplicity behind doublespeak and legalese, something we tend to go along with in this country for the sake of our "national interests" (among other reasons). However, in other cultures of the world where they say what they mean and mean what they say, they think of our doublespeak as utter BS. When this hypocritical doublespeak is coupled with world-wide military adventurism, then it's easy to see just how infuriated the outside world would be towards many of our policies.

    It's actually a recurring theme in our national consciousness, going all the way back to a time when we spouted "freedom" and "liberty" when only white males who owned property could actually vote. It's really not all that much different today, even though we now have universal suffrage, for what that's supposed to be worth.

    This is a government which believes that Constitutionalists are political radicals and potential terrorists. Imagine that: People who would actually hold the government to its oaths and promises are deemed "politically threatening" by the same government which has taken an oath to uphold the Constitution and the principles of human rights and civil liberties. This hypocrisy is so blatantly transparent that it makes people around the world wonder if Americans haven't gone stark raving mad.

    The worst part about it is that none of what our government does is actually for America's "national security," even despite all the BS justifications their apologists try to put forth. Their lies and manipulations are mainly for the sake of image and covering their own behind, much like Mafiosi who try to pass themselves off as "legitimate businessmen." It's hardly a coincidence that the most popular American film of all time happens to be The Godfather. When the outside world looks at America, that's what they see.

    If our government was so damn concerned about America's "national interests" and "national security," then they would have operated much differently than they have been. If the Communists were such a threat, then why did our government kowtow to them and give them so much? The existence of North Korea and North Vietnam was the result of an act of pure appeasement to the Soviet Union, along with just giving away Eastern Europe and setting the stage for the Cold War.

    Likewise, if Iran is such a threat, then why did our government let them get away with taking over our embassy in 1979? Why did they trade arms for hostages in the 1980s? We supported Noriega and Saddam Hussein in the past, yet suddenly they became "enemies"? Who's running this show anyway? Bozo the Clown?

    Whenever any government or military official cites "national security," I just have to laugh. These people are idiots.
     
  6. Aaron

    Aaron Well-Known Member

    Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

    You, my friends are NOT the worlds police force, you have no right invading and toppling goverments not favourable to you who most usually have vast natural rescources.....you are now paying the price...take it on the chin and realise you'll never ever be as powerful as you once were, yes you have your military (who are also corrupt and dehumanised) but I'm afraid you no longer have influence you once had and that's where it really counts....it's a shame because I was brought up believing America stood for freedom, equality and all things good, but looking in depth at your country I have found it to be quite the opposite. It is corrupt from top to bottom.

    You as a country are not 'damned if we do, damned if we don't'....you are quite simply damned.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2012
  7. Tmacster1

    Tmacster1 Well-Known Member

    Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

    Agreed I think the U.S should mind it's own business most of the time. Because the U.S already has it's own issues that it needs to take care of. We shouldn't be throwing money down the tube on pointless affairs where we should of just stayed out of. The U.S isn't the world police and it should just sit back and let the other countries deal with it's own issues by themselves. I don't know how damned this country is but I sure know they need to reevaluate there future plans because the citizens here are not supportive of the current government.

    Trevor,
     
  8. Pasta08

    Pasta08 Banned Member

    Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

    If you believe this then i think you are slightly delusional our military is the biggest in the world our navy alone is the biggest. IMHO we need to just pulled our millatary back and ignore the worlds problems like we did back in WW1 and ww2 then see how much pepole miss us arg its a no win sitation.
     
  9. Underground

    Underground Well-Known Member

    Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

    Just saying. Can you please stop pretending WWI and WWII were completely altruistic favours, the US had it's own reasons for intervening, Pearl Harbor (WWII), and the Zimmermann Telegram in WWI as well as when the Germans sank that ship that had American citizens on it. American businesses also profited from both wars massively (the Bush family and others did business with the fucking Nazis ffs), not to mention the American economy was thriving by the end of WWII. The European economies were fucked. In the eyes of the US government, the American servicemen that laid down their lives died for the US economy, not freedom, and were a well spent investment.

    Once you get over the "underappreciated freedom fighter" delusion of grandeur, then perhaps you can find a more positive onlook about this.
     
  10. RossInZona

    RossInZona Active Member

    Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

    I think it's probably a bit more complicated than that. From the very beginning of America through the 19th century and up to World War I, our main policy was to steer clear of permanent alliances and to stay out of European affairs. That's why we delayed our entry into World War I and World War II, but the biggest criticism I hear from the UK and other European allies is that we entered the war "late." That's something that has weighed heavily on our national consciousness ever since, and it's something that the militarists always bring up whenever they decide they want to go to war somewhere. "We can't desert our allies" is one of the primary arguments used to justify American militarism.

    We refused to join the League of Nations and our policy was considered isolationist, but the constant argument today is that isolationism was a mistake and that we might have saved millions of lives if we got in sooner. The British I've encountered say this CONSTANTLY ("You Yanks were late entering the war"), so why should it be any great surprise that many Americans will start believing it?

    I also reject the argument that it was all done for American business and the American economy. If that was the case, our economy wouldn't be in such a shambles nowadays. There are wealthy businessmen and powerful families in the UK, Japan, Germany, Saudi Arabia, and elsewhere around the world all making money from the misery of others, including the misery of many Americans. When Arabs can come in here and buy up everything like they own the place while most Americans are struggling to put food on the table, then I have to question the logic behind arguments that it's all for American business and our economy. It seems that our soldiers are dying to make Arabs rich, while America ends up in receivership.

    So, whatever it is you think America is doing, our country has not benefited one iota. We have too many foreign banks and other businesses with their fingers in America's pie, so we've essentially sacrificed our national security, our economic well-being, and even (possibly) our very sovereignty by these globalist activities. Sure, we might have gotten a brief economic boom during the 40s and 50s, but it was never meant to last. Ever since then, the military-industrial complex has been a major drain our economy. The only reason Americans have tolerated it for so long is because they keep hearing the same refrain over and over: "We must do this for our allies."
     
  11. Aaron

    Aaron Well-Known Member

    Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

    I don't deny you have the largest military/navy in the world (that says something about your motives in itself) what I am saying is this, what country in which you have meddled has ever been the better off for it?....name one.
     
  12. BrinkOfExistence

    BrinkOfExistence Well-Known Member

    Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

    First gulf war? i imagine Kuwait is doing better now than it was under Saddam's leadership.
     
  13. Underground

    Underground Well-Known Member

    Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

    Because American big businesses and evidently your government doesn't give a toss about your average American struggling to put food on the table? I know another thing it seems many Americans like to believe that they have perfect social mobility or there is no class system (or you're all "middle class") but that is obviously not true when you look at the rich-poor divide in the US.

    They (as in American bussines and politicians) benefited most from the wars, of course your average American wouldn't, these Arabs you talk about... do you think that accounts for your normal every day Arab, or the more elite Arabs? Same with the powerful businessmen/families from the UK, Germany, and wherever else...... they don't account for all of us.

    Nearly every war the US has entered has had some economic motive, even the Civil War, which many people seem to think is some other feel-good fight for freedom and as a result Abraham Lincoln is thought of as a national hero.

    Me? I personally don't give a toss what America does, you can go to war with whoever you like for whatever reason, or you can become isolationist.. I'm not a voter over there, so I have no reason to believe any different, just like if the Nazis won WWII, it's not like we would know any different, the chances are they would've been fought off by guerilla citizens of the former participant nations or Hitler would've fell in some other way, i.e. collapsed from within like the Soviet Union.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2012
  14. Aaron

    Aaron Well-Known Member

    Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

    I wonder what cheap rate oil deal they had to strike with you before you decided to 'protect' them, there are some Kuwaitis who feel that their country has become too 'Americanised' since.
     
  15. BrinkOfExistence

    BrinkOfExistence Well-Known Member

    Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

    First, you're using the word 'you' as if i were either directly invovled (even though i was 2 years old at the time) or you're assuming i'm American which i'm not.
    Second, the fact of matter is i think people would rather be 'americanised' than tortured or dead.
    Third, if some kuwaitis who feel that their country has become more 'americanised' then i would assume that most do not think this.

    I think you're just being biased and making accusation that you can't back up with any sort of evidence.

    You need to remember America is still a young country compared to the rest of the world and they came to power very quickly, they have a lot to learn and they are bound to make many mistakes (Sorry if that sound patronising to americans, it's more of an opinion than a fact), look back at Britains history and you will find that we have done things far worse than America has ever done.
     
  16. ExtraSoap

    ExtraSoap Well-Known Member

    Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

    And what, we were going to let Saddam control their oil?

    We need oil, just as much as everyone else does. If we need to go to war to protect our flow of oil, so be it.
     
  17. BrinkOfExistence

    BrinkOfExistence Well-Known Member

    Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

    That's what worries me about America, if all the rumours about America's hidden agenda when getting invovled with another country are true how far will they go to keep their country running when oil becomes incredibly scarce.
     
  18. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

    .....
     
  19. Prinnctopher's Belt

    Prinnctopher's Belt Antiquities Friend SF Supporter

    Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

    Please tell me that was a sarcastic post. You sure as fuck can't eat it and you also can't live in it. You can't even wipe your ass with it. Do you truly believe that oil is that valuable that you would kill one million people for it and even be killed for it, and justify it at the end of the day?
     
  20. Tmacster1

    Tmacster1 Well-Known Member

    Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

    Oil is just important to us because were dependent on it... But I wouldn't go to war over it because there's no point in doing it. It's not worth the lives lost just for some oil... We would have to find alternatives because I would sure say no to war!

    Trevor,
     
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