We're dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

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#41
Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

your just a plain idiot (proven in other threads) .
Really? You will have to let me know exactly where thats been shown to be the case? I only have to glance at this page to find evidence of that with you,oh by the way i'm still waiting on your evidence that Europe did nothing in WWII?
 

Tmacster1

Well-Known Member
#42
Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

Europe did a lot during World War 2 because that was basically the battleground till it went to the Pacific Ocean and islands with Japan. Europe could be considered a region but they did a lot I think more so than the U.S at least at the beginning. World War 2 brought the U.S out of the great depression in which gave us an economy boost. We only joined the war after Pearl Harbor. Basically they woke the sleeping giant which was indeed the US.

Trevor,
 

Aaron

Well-Known Member
#43
Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

America going to war for oil? haven't we already seen conclusive evidence of this with Iraq? who just happen to be one of the richest countries in regards to their oil reserves, they also just happen to have a very high grade of natural oil which almost oozes from the ground and needs very little refining compared to what is now coming out of your very best friends Saudi Arabia's peaked oil fields.
 

Underground

Well-Known Member
#44
Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!! America never sold weapons to the natzi's i know your grasping at straws but that was complete bullshit.
After reading the more intelligent post above you, I checked my facts, I was wrong about the weapons, but not the fact that many influential Americans traded with the Nazis (the Bush family, for example), so it's not too far from the truth, really.

And how can you accuse me of "clutching at straws" when you read a post and only reply to one aspect of it? Seriously, if you're gonna be an immature prick, then have a reason to be and prove me wrong, oh and btw, it's Nazis * you don't pronounce the 't', I can never understand why people manage to misspell such short words like that. -Sigh- On a more light-hearted note, I wish the Nazis did win WWII, then I wouldn't have to put up with "America The Saviour" rants on the internet anytime some thin-skinned person who comes from there happens to be unable to deal with criticism.

Not everyone loves America (or indeed any other country), get over it.
 
#45
Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

Well Nazi Germany was no worse than Russia thats for sure,the outcome of WWII was a failure really.Britain entered the war on a promise to Poland that if they were invaded then we would come to their aid.So what happened after the war? Oh yes they were to spend the next fifty years under communist rule,America let Stalin carve up and enslave Europe as he saw fit in their rush to get back home despite Churchills protests.It's not widely publicised because it would tarnish the image of good conquering evil but millions perished in the gulag's(concentration camps) in Siberia,Josef Stalin was every bit the cruel dictator that Hitler was so we simply exchanged one for the other.If Britain had made peace with Germany in 1939 it would have saved the lives of nearly half a million Brits,we would have been way better off economically.We would most likely would have been manufacturing supplies for Germany and would have become stinking rich on the back of the war instead of America.
 

Aaron

Well-Known Member
#47
Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

I've seen no evidence of it at the gas pumps. If it was a war for oil, then gas should be 50¢ a gallon by now.
That's because your government is holding onto the benefits....which unfortunately :biggrin: it needs during this troubled time in it's history.

From here on in it will be only those lucky enough to reside in the oil producing countries that will benefit from cheap fuel, for us in the west it will be up, up and away!
 
#48
Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

That's because your government is holding onto the benefits....which unfortunately :biggrin: it needs during this troubled time in it's history.

From here on in it will be only those lucky enough to reside in the oil producing countries that will benefit from cheap fuel, for us in the west it will be up, up and away!
Actually, a drastic reduction in energy costs would be a HUGE shot in the arm for our struggling economy, so the government is just shooting itself in the foot by holding on to the benefits and not sharing the spoils of war.

We really should have done this back in the 1960s and 70s, instead of screwing around in useless places like Vietnam. Our government has always been rather stupid and myopic.
 

Pasta08

Banned Member
#49
Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

America going to war for oil? haven't we already seen conclusive evidence of this with Iraq? who just happen to be one of the richest countries in regards to their oil reserves, they also just happen to have a very high grade of natural oil which almost oozes from the ground and needs very little refining compared to what is now coming out of your very best friends Saudi Arabia's peaked oil fields.
Lol Yes we went to war for oil yet didn't keep jack shit of the oil for ourselves lol
 

Pasta08

Banned Member
#50
Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

After reading the more intelligent post above you, I checked my facts, I was wrong about the weapons, but not the fact that many influential Americans traded with the Nazis (the Bush family, for example), so it's not too far from the truth, really.

And how can you accuse me of "clutching at straws" when you read a post and only reply to one aspect of it? Seriously, if you're gonna be an immature prick, then have a reason to be and prove me wrong, oh and btw, it's Nazis * you don't pronounce the 't', I can never understand why people manage to misspell such short words like that. -Sigh- On a more light-hearted note, I wish the Nazis did win WWII, then I wouldn't have to put up with "America The Saviour" rants on the internet anytime some thin-skinned person who comes from there happens to be unable to deal with criticism.

Not everyone loves America (or indeed any other country), get over it.

Were a capitalistic country of course people are going to sell weapons. Why would our Gov intervene that would defeat the purpose of being capitalistic. Get Over it.
 

Underground

Well-Known Member
#51
Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

Were a capitalistic country of course people are going to sell weapons. Why would our Gov intervene that would defeat the purpose of being capitalistic. Get Over it.
I take it you've never heard of the Trading With The Enemy Act.
 

JustFirefly

Well-Known Member
#52
Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

Im getting tired of everyone going to each others throats. It always bothers me how everyone points fingers at each other, Americans believe they are right because they are stuck up, Europe is angry for their own reasons. Some of those reasons have a very solid foundations, either way Americans chose to do what they thought was best for THEIR country. The only thing that has changed is that America has become more greedy and corrupt and Europe seems to be more and more bitter...

Either way... We should act how we believe others should be treated... I believe this to the core. Politics seem to just change people. Id rather go around the world and shake every persons hand... And welcome them into my home and try to make them feel welcome.

If you look at it we are already getting to the point were we are falsely accusing people of being "stupid". I realize my views are stupid and wont ever be favored by anyone, but maybe... Just maybe we could have this conversation without name calling and accusing the people as a whole... Rather point at the government instead of saying YOU DID THIS TO ME... Bah.

Maybe im just being stupid. Im sorry. Ill back off since i know im about to get flamed by someone out there... Sigh
 

Underground

Well-Known Member
#53
Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

I am not one of those that go out of my way to criticise USA/Americans, tbh. I've had American friends and would love to visit there some day, I have just encountered a lot of seemingly fragile people from there who seem easily offended and take any hint of criticism personally, so they launch the whole "the US saved you in WWII" tirade or "we could nuke you off the planet if we wanted", even if its not relevant sometimes. Granted, I know there's arrogant pricks from here who bash the USA at every opinion and it's often not called for, so yeah.

I agree though, you shouldn't really debate and start getting personal, "debate the debate, not the debater". This is a international forum, so yeah.
 

Aaron

Well-Known Member
#54
Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

Lol Yes we went to war for oil yet didn't keep jack shit of the oil for ourselves lol
You went to war to gaurantee your supply, not to thieve it (as that would be a step too far even for you) and of course to prevent Iraq changing the currency they would accept for their oil from dollars to euros (which was imminent) you're a sad nation.
 

JustFirefly

Well-Known Member
#55
Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

I agree threxy, I am American but I still don't enjoy it here. I can see your points exactly how they are and relevant wise everyone is just defending what their country was thinking. Personally I wish i was not an American, not because they are a sad country, but i feel like i agree with another side more on a lot of the debates and things. I guess thats just me though.

Just posted earlier because i hate seeing people attack and hate each other for things neither of them did in the first place lol
 
#56
Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

I am not one of those that go out of my way to criticise USA/Americans, tbh. I've had American friends and would love to visit there some day, I have just encountered a lot of seemingly fragile people from there who seem easily offended and take any hint of criticism personally, so they launch the whole "the US saved you in WWII" tirade or "we could nuke you off the planet if we wanted", even if its not relevant sometimes. Granted, I know there's arrogant pricks from here who bash the USA at every opinion and it's often not called for, so yeah.

I agree though, you shouldn't really debate and start getting personal, "debate the debate, not the debater". This is a international forum, so yeah.
I'm sort of the same way when it comes to criticizing other nations. I won't go out of my way to do it, but if the topic comes up in discussion, then I'll share my opinions. I sometimes try to balance it out and state some positive criticisms as well, giving credit where credit is due.

And I'm not all that thin-skinned when it comes to criticism of the USA, as long as it's fair criticism and doesn't sound like the typical anti-American propaganda that we hear so much of. A lot of times, it seems like America is often unfairly scapegoated, as if we're the cause of all the world's problems. My response to such criticism would also be dependent upon where the criticism is coming from and what the possible motivation is.

For example, if someone criticizes America and they're living in a country which America has harmed directly, then I might be more understanding.

But if it's from a country which has been one of our closest allies since World War II, then I would be more inclined to "lower the boom" on them, as they say. I believe that when we look at the world today and how it got that way, both the UK and USA have a shared responsibility, both in the positive and the negative. That's why I'm probably less tolerant of that kind of criticism from the UK, because it makes it look they think that America is solely responsible and that Britain had no role whatsoever in shaping the state of the world. Like they're totally innocent and free of blame. I can't just let that go unchallenged, because it's utter bullshit.

Yes, I would agree that it's overstating the case to say that "we saved you in WW2," but you have to keep in mind that Americans have been told that by our own government and propagandists even during that war and in all the years since. This was necessary in order to drum up enough popular support for our global military adventurism.

One thing to remember is that it took a massive shift in US policies and our national security perceptions, and the result was that our foreign and military policy closely mirrored that of the UK following World War II. So, in essence, we had to change many of our founding national values to be more like the UK (and France, to a lesser extent), as they were the main superpowers and rulers of the world prior to WW2.

So, even if we didn't "save you" in WW2, we still had to sacrifice our national principles in order to maintain the global stability which was threatened due to the weakening of Western Europe and their hold over the world, as well as the threat from the Soviet Union which Western Europe was still depleted and not capable of meeting that threat. The situation left a number of power vacuums throughout the world, such as in Africa, the Middle East, and the Far East - all areas which were previously under UK or French control but were losing hegemony rapidly.

Vietnam was really a French mistake that we ended up having to try to clean up, because the French couldn't do it themselves. The British had been involved in Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan long before we ever came on the scene, not to mention Pakistan and China. The post-colonial world was a total mess, as it still mostly is today, and all we were trying to do was clean up the mess and prevent the Communists from taking advantage of the situation. So, when people from Britain or France try to condemn America for what we're doing, I feel it's important to remind them of the kind of mess that THEY made in the world prior to our more active involvement in international affairs. It's not all America's fault, and overall, I don't think we did such a bad job in the long run.

Also, there's a tendency to blame America first, while completely ignoring the policies and actions of our adversaries. People would make one-sided criticisms of America without a more balanced approach which include criticisms of Soviet policies, Iran's policies, North Vietnam's policies, China's policies, and so forth. The implication is that every other government on Earth are nothing but saints, while America is all evil in their eyes. That is blatantly false propaganda, and that's also something that can't go unaddressed.

I'm not saying that America is a perfect nation, either. I am very critical of my government and the policies they impose on us, although from my point of view, I'm more critical of domestic policy than foreign/military policy. I honestly believe that America should withdraw all of its troops from the rest of the world and focus more on taking care of its people here at home. Let the rest of the world handle its own problems, but whenever I try to argue this point among my own countrymen, all I get is the same crescendo of bullshit from Republicans and Democrats, who are both basically the same when it comes to their foreign policy agenda.

It would a tremendous help if other governments would publicly announce that they don't need our help, which would also serve to reduce the prestige of the globalists here in the USA. It just infuriates me when I hear criticisms of America when these people should rightly be criticizing their own governments instead. Our government justifies its policies by constantly proclaiming that these countries "need America's help," and when we don't hear anything to the contrary from these governments, what are Americans supposed to believe? Are they supposed to believe someone on the internet who says "America sucks," or should they believe the official recognized governments of those nations who claim that they "need America's help"?

Likewise, I absolutely refuse to accept any criticism from Japan, Italy, Germany, or the former Soviet Union. Any country that would allow scumbags like Tojo, Mussolini, Hitler, or Stalin to rule as dictators deserves no respect whatsoever. They have absolute no right to complain about anything America does, since their aggression and expansionism were the direct cause of most of the problems the world is facing today.
 
#57
Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

You went to war to gaurantee your supply, not to thieve it (as that would be a step too far even for you) and of course to prevent Iraq changing the currency they would accept for their oil from dollars to euros (which was imminent) you're a sad nation.
Actually, I think our actions in Iraq were more to protect Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, as it was the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in 1990 which initially sparked the First Gulf War which directly led to the Second Gulf War in 2003. I always believed that they should have taken out Hussein back in 1991, then we wouldn't have even had to get involved in 2003. Our nation is a sad nation only because we've had so many politicians and military leaders who like to talk tough, but when it comes to actually doing anything, they pussy out with half measures and ill-conceived plans.

The way Bush kissed up to the Saudis was absolutely shameful, and that gives us a pretty good indication of why the US went to war with Iraq. That's what makes it pretty sad all the way around.

Besides, Western Europe and Japan are far more dependent upon Persian Gulf oil than we are, so they're the ones who have benefited economically, not us. We have other sources of oil we can utilize which are much closer to home. What's even sadder about America is that we do all this for the sake of other nations, not for ourselves. It's never been for ourselves, because overall, our policy of helping the rest of the world has resulted in a net economic loss for our nation.

This is why I agree with you that America should withdraw from the rest of the world and think only of ourselves. It seems that doing this would make Americans better off. Moreover, from what I can tell from these criticisms, the rest of the world would be better off, too. It could be a win-win for all, if only our government would stop kowtowing to foreign governments and stop involving itself in globalism. That's what makes it all so sad.
 
#58
Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

I have many American friends but when <edit ,mod total eclipse rude>start claiming Europe did nothing in WWII,it pisses me off beyond belief.Not only did your government's tell you this but every hollywood war film but there's no excuse for not finding out the truth for yourselves!! All government's lie to their people and i kind of hoped everybody knew that by now,read books and learn the truth or else dont comment.At the end of WWII churchill was disgusted with America letting Stalin carve up Europe as he saw fit as they just couldn't wait to get back home and couldn't care less what happened to Europe afterwards.Offering up the facts that France were here and Britain there before your military ever set foot in this or that country is really lame.In that case i'm blaming Julius Cesar and the entire Roman army for everything that's ever happened ever!:).Listen there's not a nation out there that isn't to blame for something in the past but it's the now we need to focus on,however as i said i'l correct ignorant pigs all day long who say Europeans did nothing but sit on their ass in WWII.The stats and the campaigns during that war are widely available for all to read unless they happen to be blinkered or ignorant.
 
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#59
Re: Where dammed if we do dammed if we don't....

I have many American friends but when <edit mod total eclipse rude> start claiming Europe did nothing in WWII,it pisses me off beyond belief.Not only did your government's tell you this but every hollywood war film but there's no excuse for not finding out the truth for yourselves!! All government's lie to their people and i kind of hoped everybody knew that by now,read books and learn the truth or else dont comment.At the end of WWII churchill was disgusted with America letting Stalin carve up Europe as he saw fit as they just couldn't wait to get back home and couldn't care less what happened to Europe afterwards.Offering up the facts that France were here and Britain there before your military ever set foot in this or that country is really lame.In that case i'm blaming Julius Cesar and the entire Roman army for everything that's ever happened ever!:).Listen there's not a nation out there that isn't to blame for something in the past but it's the now we need to focus on,however as i said i'l correct ignorant pigs all day long who say Europeans did nothing but sit on their ass in WWII.The stats and the campaigns during that war are widely available for all to read unless they happen to be blinkered or ignorant.
Well, I think as long as people use arguments based in fact, it can still be a fruitful and cordial discussion. I agree that the OP was incorrect in stating that "Europe did nothing in WW2," but as you say, the truth is out there.

But history is not just a recitation of random events which just pop out of nowhere. Everything that happens has a cause, and however "lame" you think it is, it's perfectly valid to examine the chain of events and the cause-and-effect relationships which exist in the historical record. If you take only a selective approach to history, picking and choosing which facts make your country look good (and ours bad) while ignoring other relevant facts which might not reflect well on your country, then I would consider that to be intellectually dishonest.
 
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