What if you find a watch in The sand?

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by muslim, Nov 16, 2006.

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  1. muslim

    muslim Well-Known Member

    Suppose you found a watch in the middle of the desert. What would you conclude? Would you think someone had dropped the watch? Or would you think that the watch came by itself?

    Of course, no sane person would say the watch just happen to emerge from the sand. All the intricate working parts could not simply develop from the metals that lay buried in the earth. The watch must have a manufacturer.

    If a watch tells an accurate time, we expect the manufacturer must be intelligent. Blind chance cannot produce a working watch.

    But what else tells accurate time? Consider the sunrise and the sunset. Their timings are so strictly regulated that scientists can publish in advance the sunrise and sunset time in your daily newspaper, but who regulated the timing of sunrise and sunset? If a watch cannot work without an intelligent mark, how can the sun appear to rise and set with such clockwork regularity? Could this occur by itself?

    Consider also that we benefit from the sun only because it remains at a safe distance from the earth. A distance that averages 93 million mile. If it got much closer, the earth would born up. And if it got too far way, the earth would turn into an icy planet making human life here impossible. Who decided in advance that this was the right distance? Could it just happen by chance?

    Without the sun, plants would not grow. Then animals and human would starve. Did the sun just decide to be there for us?

    We need to experience sunrise. We need the sun’s energy and its light to see our way during the day. But we also need sunset. We need break for the heat, we need the cool of the night and we need the lights to go out so we may sleep. Who regulated this process to provide what we need?

    Moreover, if we had only the warmth of the sun and the protection of the atmosphere we would want something more-beauty. Our clothes provide warmth and protection, yet we design them also to look beautiful/ knowing our need for beauty, the designer of the sunrise and the sunset also made the view of them to be simply breathtaking.

    The creator who give us light, energy, protection and beauty deserves our thanks. Yet some people insist that He does not exist. What would they think if they found a watch in the desert? An accurate, working watch? A beautiful designed watch? Would they not conclude that there does exist a watchmaker. One who appreciates beauty? Such is God who made us.
  2. Ziggy

    Ziggy Antiquitie's Friend

    Quickly responding to your argument about the watch on the beach, take a close look at the animal kingdom, see how beautiful and perfectly designed these creatures are. Thing is they’re not designed to be friendly, God didn’t design the tiger to get you a cup of tea in the morning, he designed it to rip your head off…

    Also I don’t think the sun is here for our benefit, after all since when have humans been so important? We’re only on this planet a short time. Consider bacteria, they emerged at least 3.5 billion years ago and live in every possible habitat including soil, underwater, and even sulfuric acid. Around one hundred thousand of them exist in a millilitre of sea water and basically we only exist because they enable us to.

    So although we may be bigger then them it’s hard not to conclude that it’s their planet after all. In the end humans will be wiped out by volcanic activity, meteor strikes, ice ages etc but the bacteria will continue regardless. Makes you think about what God considers to be important doesn’t it? Oh, then the sun will die and even the bacteria will be gone, in the end God’s creations are destined to be destroyed… at least watches are meant to last.
  3. poison

    poison Well-Known Member

    nothing is meant to last... watches can easily be broken... EVERYTHING is destined to be destroyed... all that starts ends.
  4. Darken

    Darken Well-Known Member

    Wrong. This world doesnt appear to be designed in any way, at least not by an intelligent and benvolent being.
  5. poison

    poison Well-Known Member

    that wasn't what I was getting at.... everything that starts has an end... thats just logic.
  6. Raven

    Raven Guest

    Ahhh I will respond, one of my favorit arguments to crush, take this, the universe as far as we know it is infinite, what does this mean, take a ship sail it out on the oceans of stares for 30 hundred billion years and you will have even seen 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 of the universe.


    And that is only us starting to pear out into the nothings of space, and guess what we find, we are not uniqe, of solor system has happened and shall happend again, no just chance.
  7. Syd

    Syd Guest

    So much exists beyond our 5 senses and limited human comprehension, I don't see how anyone could even begin to think humans have the resources to properly define the origins of life and the universe. It's like seeing only a grain of sand on the beach, and calling the grain of sand Earth.
  8. Just a point of logic, but how does anyone claim knowledge of the unknown
    if it is beyond the reach of our five senses ? You cannot assert knowledge claims as true if they cannot be examined or verified. Using your methods all spurious claims must be accepted as true if proof is no longer a requirement for belief.

    For example, I heard that God has signed a peace treaty with Satan and that the Devil and his demons have all moved bank to their former home and everyone is getting along just great. Well, since I can't disprove it
    I'll just accept it as true.
  9. Syd

    Syd Guest

    You don't have to accept anything as true (I sure don't!) this discussion is too subjective for us to take anything very seriously, I thought that was a given. Of course from a strictly logical point of view, we would not even define anything beyond our human comprehension accurately with words or ideas, it would be nonsense. Definition of words can still be stretched some to compensate for our confining system of language, just for the sake of theoretical discussion. Despite no empirical evidence, it's hard not to acknowledge that nearly infinite amounts of inconceivable information and alternate realities, dimensions, etc. must exist beyond our own. You're not going to have 100% confidence of this, no.. but the ideas are supported when thinking about other patterns and scenarios of life in a certain context. There's actually nothing (strictly speaking) that we can have 100% absolute assurance of, even in science. However, I would say the probability that humans can understand everything in the universe with our simple brains and five senses is infinitesmally smaller than the probability that humans know almost nothing at all.

    A deaf person hears no sound, and the blind can't see, but does that mean music, sound waves, images, light, and colors don't exist? To the blind, images truly don't exist. In the same way, I think there is a lot that we as a species are unaware of, is non-existant to us, but is just as real as sound, images, or anything else we know. Look back at history. Humans used to believe the world was flat, but only because we hadn't acquired the resources to see travel and see everything else yet. Humans used to think the sun revolved around the Earth, this was all before simple math and science was able to prove otherwise. Life is about exploration and discovery.

    If you asked a man from the year 4000 B.C. to describe the world and the universe, he would give a far different account than someone from 1000 A.D., or 1800 A.D., and still someone from 2000 A.D. would have newer ideas still. If space travel and the ideas of satellites were mentioned 200 years ago, people would probably laugh or think we're mentally ill. We're constantly discovering new things in science, psychology, physics, etc. that are changing the way people see and define their own realities.

    Now personally, I'm agnostic.. I don't at all believe in the concept of god, at least not by the definition those in most organized religions accept. The reason I'm not atheist is because I can admit I'm not 100% sure of god's non-existence. God's existence can neither be proven nor disproven. Personally, I think Aristotle's un-moved mover concept is at least one acceptable way of thinking about god, it's acknowledging a basis for all events. Why would this basis for everything need to be a sentient being? Because some humans are arrogant enough to think the universe was made "just for us" as if the universe revolves around humans. :p

    I guess the point I'm making here... everything we know and understand is just information being filtered into our brains, that's it.. to assume that we're taking in all information possible, and that humans know enough to define the origins of life and the universe itself... is just sheer arrogance, and nonsense. All you have to do is think about evolution on a time line to realize how far we've come... and think about how much we'll change and grow in another 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 years..

    Logically, you can say nothing exists except for what we take in through our senses and analyze in our minds, but human communication and comprehension is very limited.. I think people often forget that we're just animals after all. Not that it's a bad thing! :) There's a huge difference between being proud and having an over-inflated sense of worth. I'm proud of humanity's progress, but we simply don't have the resources to properly explain certain things. So I'm agreeing with you then (I hope) in saying that humans should not cling too strongly to any one belief, but instead should constantly be questioning and exploring. For example, your questioning of my post was appropriate, though maybe I've explained my reasoning better now. If not, too bad - I've had no sleep and I'll return to this later to fill in where I left off. :)
  10. Howdy Syd.

    I guess that I am somewhat more dogmatic about what constitutes "possibilities". I suppose, in the purely conceptual sense, most anything is possible. I put more emphasis upon what is "probable". I believe that it is
    possible that there is intelligent life on other planets.....but, without at least
    some shred of verifiable evidence, it is prudent to withhold judgement.

    Based upon my former experiences with religion, I find it much more difficult
    to accept anything without at least trying to verify its validity. Carl Sagan
    stated that he didn't want to believe, he wanted to know and although my intellectual capacity is nowhere near someone like Carl Sagan's, I still see
    the value in what he was saying.

    I'm a creative person and I value imagination. It's a nice alternative to reality but I try not to let them overlap ( I mean that in a nice way, not like you are an air-head who can't tell reality from unreality. ) Most importantly, this does not keep me from admitting that your assertions ARE possible, I simply require a little more proof before I can excited about it. Does that make any sense ?

    BTW, you sound like a really nice person, so I hope I didn't come across as
    some kind of close-minded, asshole. In fact I'm going to go back and read your post again to try a little harder to see things from your point of view. Cheers.
  11. Syd

    Syd Guest

    Haha, well actually it's alright - I do the same thing myself.. you were right to point out that we should work with what we know. You didn't come across as an ass or anything like that (just a guy who wants to discuss practical matters) although people accuse me of being arrogant myself. (which I'm not! hurts my feelings :() Hopefully I'm getting a little better at it though.

    The funny thing about this is that the idea of there being hundreds, thousands, millions of alternate 'levels' of information (to think of each sense as a level) is of course just another product of the human mind itself, imagination as you've pointed out. Humans, being as primitive as we are - It is actually strange to think that we can take anything very seriously considering how insignificant our lives and thoughts are to the many trillions of light years worth of galaxies out there.

    I remember a discussion awhile ago about mathematical probabilities of life existing elsewhere (no idea how it was calculated) but maybe I'll be able to find the references to that if anyone is interested. I think it was based on estimations of resources in the universe that were vital for proteins, amino acids, etc. here on Earth. So it seems this is getting a bit off-topic now. That's okay though, because you started it by bringing up Carl Sagan. Now I'm going to post an animated gif one of my friends made that shows just a tiny piece of the enormous universe out there. It's probably not relevant at all, I just feel like posting a pretty picture to make up for all this boring text.

  12. Wow, the scale of it all is truly incomprehensible. Just the dimensions of some of the giant stars is almost...frightening !!!

    Totally awesome presentation; lots of interesting facts to go with the stunning
    graphics, and the most impressive aspect of all this is that it is REAL.
  13. Ziggy

    Ziggy Antiquitie's Friend

    even if I could understand the origins of life and the universe, the nature of alternate realities and dimensions, would I actually be able to understand myself?

    oh by the way loved the video clip.

    and if anyone else is really bored here's a question... consider the sun, we see it every day, but do we know what colour it is?
  14. xan

    xan Chat Buddy

    Another one of your things... about how god must exist cos the sun rises? perhaps we should tear the heart out of a living man every day so that it continues to do so, to make god happy? the aztecs believed that, so why should we assume they were wrong? Sayin that it is so accurate it must have been set up by someone is crap too.. it's just the speed and velocity of the earths movements in realtion to the sun happen to be predictable, the same way that no matter how many posts you put up here it will just make me more unreligious and the more i reply to the more you'll be to blind to actually take in anything other than what has been programmed into your mind...
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