What religion means for us suicide-commiters

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by hellwithhugewounds, Dec 27, 2008.

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  1. hellwithhugewounds

    hellwithhugewounds Well-Known Member

    I don’t know if there is a God or deity or not. I’m actually kind of stuck on this matter. But I figure that it doesn’t matter both ways, because both ways things suck. If there is no God, then that means that we are all here for absolutely no reason, and our minds will just cease to exist when we die. When we die, that’ll be the end of everything for us. That’s a boring, crappy ending, but one that can suite me, because at least it’s better than the daily suffering that I’m in. Still, it’s not very magnificent. :dry: But if there is a God, that still doesn’t mean that I’m well off when I die. I’m not saying this because I’ll be sent to hell for not believing in Him fully. I’m saying this because, if he can truly do everything and is capable of everything, what a gigantic arsehole he must be! If he is truly God and capable of everything, then why does he allow all of the suffering to go on in this world? Why doesn’t he just make the whole world happy as can be, if he can do it? What I’m trying to say is that if God truly can do everything, why is the things he created so imperfect? Why did he CHOOSE to make things so imperfect?:mad::mad: I can’t possibly think of God as a kind deity if he allows all this imperfection and suffering when he can stop it, if he can do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING. But if God’s not an arsehole, then that must mean he’s NOT capable of everything. It means that he’s incapable of achieving perfection, incapable of stopping the suffering in the world, but he tries his best. Thus, god is really not God. If we see god in this way, he becomes more humanized. He becomes imperfect, like us. He’s more of a superhero with supernatural powers, but he doesn’t have all powers. Superheroes can’t fix everything. :sad:Thus, the conclusion that I have reached is that either God is a complete asshole, in which case when I die I’m going to suffer immensely, or God is just a superhero and can’t do everything, in which case I probably won’t be very well of either when I die. Death will be much like life, where it’s a free-for-all with nobody fully in control. And I would lose, like I have in life.

    I'd like to hear your thoughts on this subject :biggrin:
  2. fromthatshow

    fromthatshow Staff Alumni

    What if...
    God loves you so much
    He allows you to be whatever you want to be
    Even if it means separate from Him?

    And you can hate him
    and he will still love you whenever you're ready to be with Him again?

    What religion means for people who comitt suicide might be that you're going to hell. But a lot of religion is bull. A lot of religion attributes God with characteristics of man.

    In truth there is no punishment or judgement aside from your own for yourself. If you deem yourself worthy, you are. And there is no reason not to, no matter what.

    That being said, suicide is ok I think, just not the best of choices a person could make. Because it doesn't really solve anything.

    Feel better :hug:
    God loves you :heart:
  3. hellwithhugewounds

    hellwithhugewounds Well-Known Member

    This is an interesting point. But if God is all powerful and full of love, that still doesn't make sense. If God is capable of anything, then He already knows what choices I would make when He chose to create me as he did. He knew that I would suffer and be miserable, and knew the way to fix it. But this didn't happen. And what's more, He knows exactly what my wishes for my life are, He knew them even before He created me, and yet my life as He has constructed it is in so many ways not what i want from it. It just doesn't make sense for me...

    I am very open to discussion on this topic... hope to get deep insightful views from everyone...
  4. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Well-Known Member

    This is a classic example of a false dilemma. There's these choices:

    The God of the three big religions - Yaweh/Allah
    The gods of the polytheistic religions - Hindus/Buddhists
    The deist belief of god/s
    No gods
    We're god

    There are very rarely ever two options alone.
  5. Mikeintx

    Mikeintx Well-Known Member

    I've been thinking about this a bit lately. As far as there being and afterlife... if we think about it is it really that farfetched? I think "life" is a lot more farfetched than an "afterlife"... I mean here we are in a universe made of dust, made of billions of cells all programmed to do everything perfectly to support our life, billions of electrical impulses in our head for cognitive thought... someone or something went through a lot of trouble to make us this way... seems kinda like a waste to let it end in the physical realm...

    Seems kinda like we are the odd man out in this place... like look in just our local vicinity... we have the sun... a giant ball of energy created by a lot of dust and gas... we have the planets... same thing just not big enough to put out energy like the sun... and in between all this? a whole lotta "space"..... we have billions of particles of "dark energy" flowing through everything, pushing everything away, making everything expand... while in a smaller sense we have "gravity" holding things in their orbits etc... then we have "dark matter" halos surrounding our BILLIONS of galaxies keeping them from rotating too fast and accounting for all the "missing matter" that was missing for a while when people speculated how much "stuff" should be in our universe.

    We are in a universe of chaos... but throughout all this chaos... in a universe where over time things should float towards more chaos (such as an egg breaking yet a broken egg not coming back together etc) here we are typing on our computers listening to music, thinking "hmmm what am I gonna get for dinner tonight? Bah I have to work tommorrow I HATE work, its so lame, I wonder what so and so is up to friday night?"

    Hmmm all this evolution and unimaginable complexity for me thinking about makin a hamburger in a lil while while watching somethin on tv......... :laugh:
  6. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Well-Known Member

    The force, evolution as it's called, sucks actually. We're FAR from perfect. First, we are susceptible to illnesses of all varieties. Second, we age. A perfect being would regenerate eternally. Third, cancer. Our immune system can't see it, and it let's it just grow. Fourth, we are vain, petty and many other undesirable things. Etc.

    Evolution worked blindly and with no intent but making things that propagated. Here we are. We aren't much. Also, we are our cells. Every little fiber of our being makes us. When they die, we die. They are us, and we a tied inextricably with them.
  7. hellwithhugewounds

    hellwithhugewounds Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the response guys.

    From Lovecraft: "There's these choices:"

    I believe i already addressed the big 3, and polytheism is no different, either they're all arseholes or their something like superheroes that can't fix everything. I think that covers deities. I think i've covered no gods, then death would suck, be the end of everything. That's basically the same as Solipsism. If we're the gods, that would suck EVEN MORE, since that means this is as good as it gets, this crappy life of ours. The state of Nihilism is what I'm in, I guess, but of course Nihilism doesn't account for what happens after death, it's only a rational thesis about life. But without the info about what happens after death, Nihilism is a theory I believe in, at least about life, not afterlife.

    From Mike: "if we think about it is it really that farfetched?"

    Yeah, when you say it that way, it seems so logical and common sense that there would be an afterlife. But you can't ignore the fact that there are complex scientific explanations that I don't want to get into a debate about. Anyway, if there is an afterlife we're back to this are Gods arseholes or powerless thing again. Either way it doesn't look pretty.

    Once again thanks so much for all the replies!:biggrin:
  8. Atheist Demon

    Atheist Demon Account Closed

    I agree with you whole-hardenly, that is why I am an agnostic-atheist.
  9. jameslyons

    jameslyons Well-Known Member

    You cease to exist when you die. Just gone.

    The only morality suicide has is in regards to the damage the person who dies by suicide inflicts on their family, friends, and acquaintances.

    So long, thanks for all the fish

    Just gone.

    The good news is that most things in this universe have already died. So you'll be a member of the "in-crowd".
  10. Rockster

    Rockster Guest

    And if you choose suicide by throwing yourself in front of a vehicle or some other very graphical way, wouldnt that affect the people involved, like the driver, someone that finds you etc? Isnt there morality behind that?
  11. Ziggy

    Ziggy Antiquitie's Friend

    If God wants my soul, he can kill me and take it.
    If the Devil wants my soul, he can kill me and take it.
    Oh, I guess nobody wants my soul. Not surprising really.
  12. jameslyons

    jameslyons Well-Known Member

    You know how informal we are in the states. Were I to end my life in a graphic manner that impedes the life of a stranger, I'd consider him an acquaintance in passing :tongue:

    But yes, that is an immoral action for what it does to the people involved. I just don't believe in an authoritarian uber being's morality.
  13. levitated-one

    levitated-one Well-Known Member

    You know there are many things we know nothing of, because we're human. The truth is - we don't know GOD. Religions claim to speak of God as if they know GOD, but nobody knows GOD fully unless he's of GOD himself.

    We know nothing about GOD.. we simply expect that he answers our prayer, or that he create a perfect lifestyle instead of this shit world we're living in. You know nothing.. we know nothing.. What if it's our own choice that we came to this planet? Buddhism and Hinduism, and modern spirituality believes in the pre-life planning, that we choosed our environment, our parent.. not knowing how hard it can be on Earth. We came here to learn, and to improve our soul to a higher consciousness. Many have see the truth, and always seeking for higher truths..by meditation, going into deep trance state of mind. Some people are accessing it via drugs - which I have made a mistake in my past I've fully quit now.

    The truth is - we know nothing. The reality is - there's always a higher reality. There's always a higher truth, which humans cannot comprehend. There's a greater work going on and we'll just cry thinking to ourselves how foolish and ignorant we have been - if we ever got a glimpse of the higher truths.. we're so ignorant..we're so foolish.. and that's not a bad thing.. it's only because we're human right now, that's the sad thing.

    The truth is we need to help each other in this world.. GOD is always here, nothing is hidden. If we're still the same selfish, ignorant, hateful, vain, unloving, unkind - why do you expect GOD to turn things around when the things that should be turned around is really how we treat each other as human beings? How we treat one another? That's the whole reason why Jesus came here is to show love, to preach the gospel of love - nothing else is as important as this.

    Until we can change ourselves as better people, we shouldn't be crying over why bad things are happening and GOD not doing anything.. the main reason we're here is to learn.. the best way to learn is to do the hard things and go through it ourselves.

    Look at the wars happening, the genocides happening, the murder, killings, rape, torture, bullying, hating, everything that is going around that is bad in this world - doesn't it start from us??

    Although, "act of GODs" do happen like tsunami, earthquakes, floods, accidents & victims; they are part of the consequences of living on Earth.. as these are natural disasters. Since we're immortal nothing is lost.. we go back to where we came from.. same as every other deaths.

    Life is a lesson, it's a game, it's an exam. Nothing is lost however.
  14. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Well-Known Member

    Proof please. I'm willing to let some claims fly without substantiation, but this is too great a claim to give the benefit of the doubt.

    Also, how do you know there is a God?
  15. levitated-one

    levitated-one Well-Known Member

    Lovecraft, it went back to where I've seen the supernatural. Given the fact that I've seen them personally, I've concluded that since there are things we have not yet discovered/ experienced by human beings, there must also be GOD. It is only the experiencer will know, you cannot know unless you've experienced, or you have faith. I have experienced the sightings of spirits, therefore have faith that there must also be GOD.

    The only reason I say this, is to reply to those who: "doesn't believe in GOD because there's so much trouble in the world; therefore says GOD does not exist".

    I say that we don't know much about GOD. And if you've experienced in the spiritual like me, you'll also believe there's GOD. When spiritual things happen to you, you'll then start to solve the spiritual puzzle..and realize that the physical world is the the only dimension.

    This is not delusion. There will always be skeptics but it's up to you what you say.. I can only speak from the truth. I have no intention of lying, nor am I in delusion - this is the truth.
  16. Aaron

    Aaron Well-Known Member

    There is a saying, 'God never burdens a soul with more than it can bear'...the truth of this I am yet to be convinced of.

    However, the older I get the more it seems to me that life is a test and some are tested harder than others.

    You will never know what is around the next corner if you are not prepared to walk and endure the rocky (for some) road of life.

    As for the religious aspect well, I dunno, I have problems with the complexity of religious teachings and their application in the real (human) world
  17. hellwithhugewounds

    hellwithhugewounds Well-Known Member

    If that were true nobody would ever commit suicide.
  18. hellwithhugewounds

    hellwithhugewounds Well-Known Member

    Are you a Christian, levitated one? If you are, I can fully prove you wrong.

    But if no human can comprehend what God is, then can't we say that he's evil, not all powerful? If the only things being said about God are all incomplete theories, wouldn't it make more sense to say that God is either more evil or more powerless than the common belief? Wouldn't that be more logical in terms of the suffering in the world?

    If we can't comprehend what God is, then how do you know about God that he can't be comprehended? Isn't that also a characteristic of God? Isn't God completely incomprehensible? Then how can you comprehend that He is incomprehensible?
  19. wibble

    wibble Well-Known Member

    Im a catholic, and Suicide is defined as a cardinal sin IIRC, and because its a final act, the person does not have the chance to repent and therefore goes to hell.

    Now, the quote 'God never burdens a soul with more than it can bear' has acually been doing the rounds just recently with a lot of the televangelists on TBN, GOD TV etc (for one example, check out Joel Osteen). Its basically some line that preachers and priests trot out to make the person in question feel strong and convince them that God actually gives a toss.

    Given that Hell is now defined as the seperation of man from God, eternal seperation from a God who neither cares not wants me doesnt seem so bad.
  20. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Well-Known Member

    Non-sequitur. Because you have *perceived* something, you assum it must therefore be there and also be what you think it is. You then make the wild assumption this means there is a greater power looking over us all.

    It's also still devoid of proof. You're saying "I saw this and there's no way to understand it unless you see it too. But you probably can't. And it is overseen by this God character. How do I know? I just do. This is true."

    I understand and believe in the existence of a cornucopia of things I have never experienced. The conservation of mass and energy, the theory of evolution, the Hayflick limit, telomere shortening. I have never seen these things or experienced them first-hand, but I have solid proof for them and I beleive them. Produce some of the same if you wish to speak these ideas as truths.
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