Who Dies?

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by ToAbraxasWithHeadaches, Mar 30, 2015.

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  1. According to Venkataraman (soon to be known as Sri Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi), at age 16, he initiated a process of self-enquiry that culminated, within a few minutes, in his own permanent awakening. In one of his rare written comments on this process he wrote:

    “Enquiring within Who is the seer? I saw the seer disappear leaving That alone which stands forever. No thought arose to say I saw. How then could the thought arise to say I did not see.”

    This is truly the languageless state. In fact, to call it a ‘state’ would be to say too much. ‘This’ is exactly what is not-described.

    Take the thought experiment, schrodingers cat. The measurement is what causes the wave function to collapse and causes your experience to become 1 thing. HOWEVER in the case of this non-dual place of seeing, and this is really tricky at first, but if you look at all objects WITHOUT identifying, without labeling, then in essence you are experiencing the wave function (we might as well call this the enlightened state, even though it is not really a state, per se) without it collapsing, which is basically everything happening at once. And that is a completely different experience then when mind is extroverted and focused on thought or sense objects.

    In the case of quantum mechanics and the double slit experiment the measurement that is taken is what causes the wave function to collapse. In our case, to experience (nothing is separate in a non-dual reality, so its not a separate experience but THEE experience itself ) non-conceptuality you must fully understand that, it is the very thought or labeling itself that is the measurement which causes the collapse from the state of “seeing the Seer” to being caught up again in samsara.

    The level of focus and intensity of dedication to be constantly self-aware will take time but eventually becomes effortless. If you watch mind so acutely you will actually see where thought arises from. And the thought is usually the “I” thought; that is to say “I would be very happy if x….” or “I should really do x because then y will happen” etc. If you can fine tune your awareness to watch mind in this way then the awareness will actually stop the “I” thought right in its tracks, and you will remain Abiding As That. If you don’t catch the “I” thought then it will trail out into “I, I, I, I, ” and before you know it you are caught up in the tricks of mind again. If that happens simply realize when you are in thought, use that awareness to shift the awareness unto what is shifting the awareness.

    The next time an emotion, feeling, sensation or thought arises, such as “what x said to me today really hurt me” ask yourself “who is hurt?” naturally (most) people will exclaim “I!!!, its me, I am the one suffering” Now at this junction ask yourself “Who Am I?” This is designed to introvert the mind and bring you back to source, bring you back to that place where there are no thoughts, there is no suffering, just complete bliss. Every night you willing go into deep sleep and love it. What is deep sleep? It is You as Awareness without any objects to confuse yourself with, you remain pristine. So, from that teaching point, one could say that every night in deep sleep you completely surrender this person on your drivers license that you think you are and you are happy to do so! Therefore, just using your direct experience, not something that mind creates (memory is another object of mind and has no part in this direct experience) you could say that every night in deep sleep I die, between every thought I die. (the apparent person, “jiva” is the Sanskrit word here, is what dies….) Awareness/Consciousness was never even born so it/the ‘true’ You, will never die. Again, all these things are known to you, you are there prior to everything as the Witness to everything. Therefore you are always free. The objects depend on you for their existence but You do not depend on anything for your existence.

    Looking into a mirror; what is more ‘real'; the image in the mirror or that which is looking?

    If there are no thoughts to arise then how can there be even the concept of thought? or any words at all? Seeing everything from the absolute level (not dependant on anything else) then, how could there even be death if I was never born? How does that even make sense?

    As the Upanishads say over and over; I am not the mind, I am not the senses, I am not the thoughts, I am not 5 kosas, I am beyond the 3 gunas (waking, dreaming and deep sleep) I am not the body. If I am none of these things then what am I? ……. I am That, non-dual limitless (not stained by experience) Awareness. Or to put it in less abstract terms, you are there prior to any object. You are the Subject to which all objects appear. You are more subtle than mind, therefore you are prior to it, you are even more subtle than space, and time, you cannot be measured because you are before all measurement. You truly are that which Sees all, never goes anywhere, never does anything, just watches without identifying and your nature is love/bliss. Again, from the absolute level, with this understanding, contemplate this … Nothing…. Ever … Happened…. things APPARENTLY happen, and there is more written about this possibly than any other part of Vedanta, non-dualism, etc. But the point is, they are apparently happening. Once this realization becomes stable and you Abide as That the world does not disappear, it just is seen for what it is, which is basically a mirage. This is what detachment means; you can be as engaged in the mirage/movie as you want, even not at all.

    Keep pulling away from that which mind creates, and you will become the Witness of the very thought process itself and all of the answers to minds questions are answered once you step out of the thought process because the answers ARE transcendent of mind. The crux of the matter is the actualization of this… Abide As That…
  2. Luie

    Luie Well-Known Member

    This could easily end in an argument of terms, but I'll bite.

    Take the quote "I think, therefore I am." You are a subject, your thought is the product of consciousness. You think because you exist. Even at the most basic level of a brain experiencing its surroundings and processing senses to form thoughts (or that "bliss" state), that's still your brain, which has its own unique way of functioning and processing chemicals, so your experiences are subjective to you.

    Deeps sleep is also an important, thought subjective function of the brain. Your subconscious mind is very active and you are still thinking at this point. This is when you dream, when your subconscious forms scenarios based on experiences and thoughts from your consciousness in order to help you predict the outcomes of situations when you're awake. You're actually, in a way, awake in this stage, which is why it's so important that the rest of your body is paralyzed during REM so that you don't physically act out your dreams. Deep sleep is a way for your brain to process unfinished thoughts, and even if you don't remember most of your dreams, those completed thoughts still help you make decisions when you're awake.

    Of course I depend on something for my existence. I depend on my brain. Consciousness would not be possible without it (or at least, self-awareness). But I digress, because there's something important you never mentioned.

    Let's take one of your example thoughts. "What x said to me today really hurt me." And let's say that "x" is someone who you have an emotional attachment to, and let's say they said something which not only hurt you, but makes you think differently about your relationship with them. Let's say they said something unknowingly inconsiderate about your character. So. Who is hurt? It's you. They said something to you, about you, in a way that emotionally alters your relationship with them.

    You say that instead of saying "I am hurt.", you should instead not focus this thought on yourself. But that thought is important, "I" or not. Your brain doesn't have to include "I" in order for you to experience your environment. Your brain is subject already. I could say "I have a pain in my throat." Who is experiencing the pain? Me. My throat is experiencing injury, which is causing me to experience pain. The reason it is oh so crucial to embrace the "I" in that thought is because without it, "I" could not make a decision. "I" could not take action. "I" have been hurt by my friend's inconsiderate remark, and now "I" must decide what to do about it. "I" could never mention it again, or "I" could confront my friend and try to make them understand why what they said is hurtful. "I" feel a pain in my throat, and now "I" must decide what to do about it. "I" could choose to ignore it, which would not ease any pain, or "I" could go to the doctor.

    You cannot live as if you are completely detached from your surroundings no matter how much you want to. You exist in reality and are forced to experience it, any from of meditation, detachment, sleep, etc, is superficial. Reality is also superficial, but that does not shield you from experiencing it. You cannot be a witness permanently. Sometimes you're a participant, and you have to make decisions. What you feel and what you think are extremely important to taking the right action. If you don't include "I" into your thoughts, "I" can never act. Obviously that is a very ineffective and dangerous way to navigate the world around you.
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