Why not?

Discussion in 'Suicidal Thoughts and Feelings' started by peachswirl, Oct 13, 2008.

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  1. peachswirl

    peachswirl Member

    We all know we're going to die eventually. Why shouldn't we exercise our rights to die when we want to?
     
  2. On a meta level, I believe the answer is a definite yes. However since each life is different and there are other factors involved (morality especially), one has to consider such things prior to jumping to conclusions.
     
  3. peachswirl

    peachswirl Member

    Of course. I wouldn't advocate anyone killing him/herself impulsively. We should all seek help, but help doesn't always fix everyone.

    The issue with morality is a sticky one, in my opinion. Morality is basically the standards in which people collectively agree will benefit society. This would overwhelmingly involve how people treat others. For example, most people don't want to be murdered, or robbed, or raped, or beaten, etc. When several people agree that these things are bad, then they start enacting rules to punish people who commit these acts against others. So... what does morality have to do with what one decides to do with their own bodies?
     
  4. "Morality is basically the standards in which people collectively agree will benefit society. "

    I do not think that is an adequate definition of morality, although what you are stating is largely applicable to "legality" (as in why we should have laws imposed on a society) and/or "ethics." And I do concede to the fact that some of them overlap.

    "So... what does morality have to do with what one decides to do with their own bodies?"

    If I am a mother of a newborn child, if I am a father or guardian with children dependent upon me, then one can surely say it would not be moral to commit suicide. When we have attachments, responsibilities (repaying a debt, say), then it may be immoral to suicide. A large number of people gain their morals from religion, and some religions consider suicide immoral. This could prevent people from committing such and act. Again, these things work on a case by case basis like I mentioned earlier. However, I hope I make a sufficient enough case to show that morality does factor into this process.

    Note that morality here hardly extends beyond the person at hand. It is derived from the point of view of the contemplating person and has less to do with society at large.

    One final thing, if you are interested there is a free course on the Philosophy of Death from a Yale Professor at http://oyc.yale.edu
     
  5. A_pixie

    A_pixie Well-Known Member

    Ok put it this way, you're having a horrific day and something unusual lifts you.

    Like falling over and someone helps you, being very grouchy and someone smiles at you on the bus, someone you felt affection for but lost contact with deciding to ring you, etc.

    Not strictly this sort of thing but I suppose what I'm trying to say is when things are really bad, life has a bizarre habit of throwing us a subtle bone here and there, it's these kind of lifts we all smile about.

    If you died you wouldn't be able to feel hope anymore, what a horrible thing to inflict on yourself.
     
  6. Boratz

    Boratz Well-Known Member

    Peachy, I posted a reply on the other thread you posted. Did you got a chance to glance it? My own opinion of morality is nothing but is the imposition of other's beliefs to someone else. It is the same with anything else e.g. religion, academia,social , etc.. A product of programming that some people conscious or not has agreed based on the two opposing factors. The right & the wrong. But the right & the wrong is again an agreement made by the same people who did agreed one is better than the other. There is so much chaos due to this duality. I cannot agree that in any shape or form,morality has to play a role in anything & everything.

    If you & I & as part of the society as whole did not made an assumption that suicide is an immoral act,selfish etc... there be no conflict in acting on it. It is us that made this black & white color side of suicide. People give suicide a very bad definition acdg to the law of religion.

    The example given by another poster about a parent has no right to commit suicide becoz that parent has a resposibilty to the child as a parent . Again that is a product of programming about being a parent. That is idealism . Idealism to confine our mind to limitation. You can be a parent even you have no child,nor a child should always need a parent. We need to free our mind from all the limitations imposed by our past & surroundings. Millions of years of programming that is what all the chaos is from. Suicide is just a dot to start it.

    If ever I decide to end my existence it will not be based on misery or unhappiness or illness. It will be the ultimate expression of my freedom to chose, not being influence by sadness ,& crap of life. Becoz there is only crap if you again confine yourself to the dictate of the surroundings.

    I rest my case.
     
  7. "The example given by another poster about a parent has no right to commit suicide becoz that parent has a resposibilty to the child as a parent."

    Re-read my post above. That is not what I said. It was my point that that case shows that morality may be a factor in deciding about suicide. Yes, the parent still has the right to commit suicide (and many do do it).
     
  8. Mortem

    Mortem Well-Known Member

    I suppose I could throw in variables such as morals, responsibilities, emotional aspects of close ones, the possibility of missing out on something etc. These factors makes suicide "bad" or "wrong" in most cases. All a product of generations of programming as someone above suggested. Maybe this will change in the future, and there will be a more liberal attitude towards suicide.

    But fundamentally speaking your argument have an undeniable logic, and gawd do I wish I could just take it to me and put everything else aside.
     
  9. Stranger1

    Stranger1 Forum Buddy & Antiquities Friend

    I agree peachswirel, but you need to check every avenue towards positive help. Suicide shouldn't be an option. You still have the right to decide if you are going to commit, But you do need to factor in what will happen to the child. He/she will be thrown into the system and not receive the quality of care that only a parent can give. This also pertains to senoir citizens, when they get up there in years they are really going to need you to help them. Please don't decide on suicide just because it is an easy out. Take Care.~Joseph~
     
  10. BioHomocide

    BioHomocide Well-Known Member

    Because we make a big deal about death here in USA. Maybe it's religion? Most of the people who wrote and write laws are Christ freaks. Suicide means go to hell, it's evil, you can't do it! It's not your body! It's the Christian God's body! Don't ask for a receipt and try to return his gift! That will make the Jesus Killing God angry.

    The funny thing is that people make a big deal about suicide.
    In all truth it should be the person's choice as to what they can and can't do with their own body. In Japan for instance a country that doesn't exactly dramatize suicide as much as America does... they don't make a big deal of it. For centuries warriors who instead of accepting defeat would kill themselves. And even now when things go bad in Japan... like for example you lose your job or embarrass your family.... you might end up killing yourself. Recently this Japanese man hanged himself because he didn't want to go to jail. It all depends on how you are raised and how the people around you think.

    In a land of freedom their are laws that forbid.
    Where did all the freedom go?
    Maybe we should call USA the land of free people with limited choices.
     
  11. peachswirl

    peachswirl Member

    And when we don't have attachments, then it affects no one. Suicide becomes amoral.

    It could, but not always. I am an atheist, so this isn't my concern.

    How does it affect society at all?
     
  12. peachswirl

    peachswirl Member

    Yuck.

    True. And there have been plenty of people right here in the U.S. that off themselves to avoid punishment. In that case, people don't see that as a morality issue, but one of escaping justice. "How dare that person go and die without paying for his crime!" That's just their sick hunger for vengeance talking.

    But I'm talking about people who are in despair and have struggled with depression for years. For me, I see no light at the end of the tunnel. I was predisposed to mental illness because my father suffers from it as well. He has never gotten better, and I can't bear the thought of living out the rest of my life feeling like this.

    Or how about the terminally ill? People should be able to die when they want to. Society cannot step in and say "No, you can't kill yourself. That will make US feel bad."
     
  13. Correct. That is the flipside to my point, however, which was that morality _may_ be a factor. In this case you are saying that it is not. That's fair enough. This is in line with my own thinking.

    Again, I agree. This too applies to me.

    This again is subjective, and leads us to a different set of questions and a whole different set of points to consider. Who are you in society? How has society invested in you? What responsibilities have you in society? How integral to society are you? How much responsibility do you feel you owe towards society? Those, I believe, are some pertinent questions. Once again, the answers depend largely on the individual mindset.

    As for how it directly affects society, a society of 10 people losing four to suicide loses at least 40% of its resources. Four people amidst a million may have a far less impact depending on who those people are and their role in society. There is a lot of unknowns here, mind you, and it all turns into a gamble at the end of the day. But we can be sure that there is an impact to society in some cases through loss of resources and productivity and what not.

    Let me just clarify my own position on this matter: There is surely more than one rational case for suicide. But each case is ultimately subjective and begs to consider a variety of factors, mostly from the point of view of the person at hand. By its very nature, suicide is a personal decision. This, I believe, supercedes all others.

    I still highly recommend you spend some time on that course. You may discover new view points or at least strengthen your own arguments at the end of it.
     
  14. Boratz

    Boratz Well-Known Member

    Not only a land of free people with limited choices ,& an infidel to their own faith & beliefs.:biggrin:
     
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