Why should Bliss by Suicide be selfish?

Discussion in 'Suicidal Thoughts and Feelings' started by Newthought, Sep 11, 2007.

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  1. Newthought

    Newthought New Member

    In case I forget to state the condition. Yes I do quite wish I was dead, but not I am not nessecarily suicidal. I mean, there could be a chance that I offed myself on some bad day if I had means to commit suicide.

    But rather, at the present moment, I consider myself not suicidal because "Oh gee, I want to live" but "Oh gee, X number of people are going to be wounded by my actions. I guess I have to live so that X number of people aren't hurt by me"

    Why the hell don't people just lay off the fact that some people want to die, and let that be. Without going over the basics of Death, an eternal end to all problems and end of the self-destructive ego can only bring a individual to eternal peace, something in which is not achievable in the regular world.

    Without resorting to Freshmen College Philisophy....

    1. I want to kill myself so I can end my conscienceness to circumnavigate all my problems.
    2. However, according to whoever, the people around me feel so and so and so and so about it. Shit if they commited suicide, I honestly would feel that is was there choice (yes, I'm talking about something like a Brother or Mother).
    3. Since I cannot (or rather should not) kill myself, I must conform to their social value and endure whatever bleak and sad existence I choose to define myself. (Coping with Paranoia warrants death on it's own)

    This is so screwed up; I'm living because others need me to live. Sure, I liike to be nice, but what rights do I have left when others desires can reign full swing on me.

    I have to live because people would be sad if I didn't.

    But the whole idea of suicide is to bring death and death itself is the perfect nirvana. If existence is the soil of all problems, then non existence prevents the growth of any problem. I could blow my brains out, fall asleep, and just stay asleep without having to wkae up for whatever to do whatever. Hell, the very idea of being alone without ANY desire for others is just so satsifying.

    Honestly, it would be so easy to kill yourself. You just have to be quick, silent, and effective. Firearms are the only way to go, IMO. But whatever, off topic.

    Others should see it as this.

    1. People have the right to end their lives.
    2. People also have the right to try and intervene.
    3. But if a Suicide happens, people should mourn but at the same time accept that someone has blown out their brains for whatever reason.
    4. And finally, THE SURVIVORS SHOULD NOT HOLD IT AGAINST THEMSELVES.

    If I sound narcissitic, cold, synical, or just a damn well brat, then fine, I cannot change your perceptions.

    But the point is that suicide should not be considered selfish...but not good either. Suicide should just mean in an unfortunate event that someone in the world decided to die on their own. End of disscussion.

    And if those who do commit suicide commit suicide, they, like all other people, are in for an eternal experince of non-existence, a respite for the life that is slowly killing us all. I mean the very unstable of fabric of existence does not warrant life when the occasional highs outline the lows in our life. The bliss by Suicide is the natural resting order in which we can no longer endure our own consciences.

    Bottom line: Suicide is not selfish and I am prepared to argue to the death for it (literally).
     
  2. gag

    gag Well-Known Member

    "Suicide is not selfish"

    Thats just an excuse to go through with it guilt free, suicide if selfish man, you'll hurt everyone that cares about you, and it'll hurt their entire lifetime, its for that one fact I haven't killed myself.
     
  3. Forlornspirit

    Forlornspirit Well-Known Member

    Newthought, you're preaching to the choir here. :hug:
     
  4. JustWatchMeChange

    JustWatchMeChange Well-Known Member

    Don't apply to me. I have kids and an unstable X wife.
     
  5. luciano

    luciano Guest

    I agree. People who want you to live in pain, such pain that you want to kill yourself to relieve it, those people are shelfish! I guess that makes everyone shelfish. And people always say you can't live your life for other people but in this situation it doesn't apply you have to live it for others?
     
  6. dreamstar

    dreamstar Active Member

    I totally agree with Newthought. Suicide isnt selfish. Well maybe if you have kids. But if your so unhappy and miserable what good are you to them??? I guess maybe wait till their grown and off yourself. I dont know. But without kids I see nothing at all selfish about suicide. I HATE that thing about suicides being selfish cowards. Really makes my blood boil! The ones who say its selfish are really the selfish ones! They want you to stay alive just to make them happy?! How selfish is that?!?!?!?! That is the ulimate selfishness to me! When you TRULY love someone you are willing to let them go if that is what they want. You want them to be out of their pain because thats how much you love them. Yes you'll be sad for a while but life has to go on. You should just be happy for them that their not in pain/suffering anymore.

    sonia
     
  7. Newthought

    Newthought New Member

    I just want to clear something up.

    Suicide is not Selfish, but it has dire consequences.

    Of course, the act of Selflishness is your pleasure on other pains. But it's not so simple.

    First there are limits. "It's selfish for me to drink this water to save my life so that someone else must walk to the next Water Fountain across the Street"

    Second. There are Rights. "It is selfish for me to prevent the Government from taking over my land and replacing it with Mansions for the Vice President Dick Cheney"

    But at the same time, when you do that, pretty much everyone around you breaks down for whatever reason, especially kids.

    What I'm arguing merely is that Suicide is not Selfish toward the individual, but rather more along the lines as an act of Tragedy.

    If you have never killed someone, and you commit suicide, consider it to be the worst thing you've ever done in your life to others....this is the bottom line.
    PERIOD.


    Not because "YOU MUST LIVE SO THAT OTHERS MUST LIVE, YOUR SELFISH IF YOU DO SOMETHING ELSE". That's like saying.

    "YOU MUST SURRENDER YOUR ORGANS SO SEVEN OTHER PEOPLE MAY LIVE, YOUR SELFISH IF YOU DO SOMETHING ELSE".

    But rather it's like.

    "Damn, this is a tragedy, I took my live. This is the worst thing I've done to someone else who have had contact with me. And although I am not being Selfish for execerting my right to do so, I am doing a very bad thing"

    Selfishness is not a simple concept. And the last thing I want is someone to get the "HEY IT'S OKAY NOW" message from me.
     
  8. Newthought

    Newthought New Member


    Not to be personal, but generally my suicidal tendencies come from the fact that not a Single Woman has shown any sexual interest from me and I'm eighteen.

    Let me establish this.

    1. Your not Selfish, it's your right- But your doing something very bad.
    2. Your not a Coward by doing this, your merely coping with the pain- But there is another way other then Suicide. (Even if it's just as painful as the current existence your in)

    I challenge anyone here to do the "Is Suicide really for me" Test.

    1. Invite everyone from your First Family in a Room.
    2. Tell them that you have a Really Good Idea---It's commiting Suicide
    3. Tell them that you have a Gun
    4. Give them a Chance to Speak
    5. Blow your brains out/put down the Gun and begin some kind of reasonable and somewhat successful Therapy.

    If you do all three of these steps, then, yes, unobjectionally, Suicide was for you.

    If you say, Gee, I'll do it. But kill yourself alone when no one was watching, then you had feelings for the other party and you should not have done so.

    If you actually do something so tramatic as this and Love your family too much not to do it. (This willpower stuff is just bullshit on a stick). Then Suicide was not for you.

    To finally recap, I came up with a quote that can you chant if your feeling this shitty.

    Suicide is the worst way to go. But it is not the only way to go.
     
  9. sullen66

    sullen66 Guest

    First of all, I think this is one of the most interesting threads here.

    Second of all, I think you are analyzing this question in a way that doesn't make sense, in terms of philosophical logic.

    1. You're assuming you're conclusion.

    -If you read all your arguments, it's basically A is true and if A is true then B is true and A is true so B is true; C is true; therefore C is true.

    You are essentially side-stepping question of what selfishness is... You don't even have a definition of the properties of selfishness, which can then be refuted.

    So, for instance, what makes a particular act selfish? Is selfishness based on INTENT, or is selfishness based on the OUTCOME? Perhaps by killing myself, I end up decreasing the level of suffering in the world... However, I estimate that those close to me would suffer if I do die by my own hands.

    So, my intent is to end my pain, the outcome will *probably* be pain for others. But the outcome doesn't have actual certainty.

    So obviously even with good intentions, one can be doing a selfish act if one is aware of the outcome. For instance, Hitler may have thought he was doing the best thing for Germany at the time, but he was aware people were going to die as a result of his plan.

    Or was he merely probably aware?

    If you are a landlord, and you kick a tenant out for their refusal to pay rent, and as a result the tenant becomes depressed, homeless, and then kills herself, is that selfish? The intent wasn't to make her homeless... but could one or should one be able to predict the future? Does one have a responsibility to predict the future? Is it only for things that are 90% likely to happen? Is it like not serving alcohol to anyone who looks under 30 without ID? An estimate?

    I tend to think it's selfish for society to guilt-trip people into staying alive when they want to die... Maybe if all the sad people died of suicide, the decrease in their pain would be far greater than the increase in pain among survivors.

    That being said, people who lose a person to suicide often suffer enormous pain. And, it's relatively certain that a person who kills himself or herself will cause that type of pain for at least one person.

    So, what is the threshold for selfishness? If we are 99% sure that suicide will cause X harm, is that selfish inherently, or does X need to reach a certain number in order for it to be selfish...

    Buying a new video game system, instead of giving it to the homeless, is 99% sure to cause harm to the homeless. But since the cost of the video game system would probably be distributed among many homeless (if the money were given to a charity), the harm per homeless person would be really low. So is that no longer selfish?

    I think it's maybe better to look at suicide from the perspective of balancing harms. A lot of people get hurt by suicide, so how much pain are you in? Is the pain you are feeling way more than all the pain everyone will feel as a result?

    These are just thoughts...
     
  10. White Dove

    White Dove Well-Known Member


    i agree

    i dont think it is selfish either..

    i also agree that those who put you in pain and keep you in that pain are selfish indeed because they care only for themselves and not at all about you or your feelings..

    me i do care for other people and i do care for their feelings and if i hurt someone i am quick to apologize because it hurts me because i hurt them but there are people out in this world who dont give a rats a.. about nothing but themselves and i have come to know and understand that fully..

    someone i loved, truly and honestly loved and they knew how i felt about them , yet because of a mistake and a blame on someone ( namely me ) but i was not guilty , yet they still blamed me and left without a word.. they knew i loved them yet they still did not give a rats a.. about me or my feelings , so to me, they were selfish.. they caused me pain, hurt unlike anything anyone could imagine.. they broke my trust, etc..

    sorry about the rant but no suicide to me is not at all selfish.. it is a means to end the pain and some choose that route..
     
  11. White Dove

    White Dove Well-Known Member


    i agree

    and.... it seems whatever you do is never good enough for them..

    you always make mistakes , rather you are writting or speaking or whatever it is never good enough for them, they always want more.. if you dont ad up to their standerds or their way of thinking then you are useless , you are a piece of crap, or you are dumb..

    i have been there and done that many , many times, seems i cant even apologize cause i do it the wrong way

    for me it is like this.

    i cant speak - or it is considered a lie

    i cant apologize - cause if i do it is either done wrongly or just a stunt for attention or to make others guilty ( what ever the hell that means ??? )

    I cant post or -- it is not done their way or their way of thinking

    heck , was even told tonight that people hate the way i handel things,, hum , can you even believe that? they hate the way i handel things ,, why??/ because it is not to their standards.. its not good enough for them , cause i am not like them..

    so what, im freeking different.. i dont handel things like you, id like to see you handel what all i have been through,

    FOR THE RECORD HERE im not talking about anyone from this forum okay??? but from another forum who come here and read....

    It just makes me want to do more , and then they want more , and more, its never going to be enough.. i am never going to be enough for them... they will always want more..

    well i know one thing.. i dont have to prove myself to God, he will accept me as i am..
     
  12. Darken

    Darken Well-Known Member

    suicide is only selfsih if some one is relying on you for their survival. like your kids or your partner. but if no one needs you than its not selfish. are they the ones in such horrible pain they want to die? no you are. Whom ever thinks its selfish, probably would change their mind if they could see a physical equivalent of pain that we are in mentally. yah even if it was selfish it doesnt matter,being good or bad doesnt mean any thing in life imo.
     
  13. dreamstar

    dreamstar Active Member

    I agree with Darken. Suicide isnt selfish as long as no one is dependent on you. For example. I have this one friend. He doesnt really have any other friends so I often feel very guilty about ending it and leaving him behind knowing he doesnt have anyone else. If he had other friends then I'd see no harm in leaving him since he wouldnt be alone. He and I arent really close but I think that we do kinda need each other. If he died I would be completely devistated and feel so much more alone in the world then. He's bascially my only friend too. But if he did decide one day that he couldnt take the pain of his life anymore I would understand and would just have to let him go. When you truly love someone you are willing to let them go if you know thats what they need. I would feel horrible guilt tripping someone into staying here and watching them be in pain/misery/agony all just so I can be happy. How selfish is that?! I couldnt live with myself being so selfish.

    sonia
     
  14. Roobear

    Roobear Member

    My view point on this is just different because of my experience.

    I wanted to kill myself because I couldn't live with the pain. It hurt so badly and so deep inside, I had no idea that you could feel emotional pain like physical pain. I cried all time, cut my ankles up to try and get rid of the pain and didn't care about anything. At this point, I was numb, anything to make the pain go away, I was dead inside anyway. I failed, and it took me a long time to realize "what was I thinking?"

    I was selfish because I wanted to kill myself over a traumatic experience that left a innocent person involved dead. Although it was all random circumstance and I never personally knew her, she was a mother, and loved life. Victim of a crime, she died slowly over the next month in a hospital as her organs failed one by one and they had to amputate her leg. She was the one fighting for her life, no matter what condition she would be in if she lived, and I was the one trying to purposely end mine.

    How could I be so selfish to cast away something that someone else wanted so badly, life? If I live, then it makes her unwanted death mean something-that life is precious.
     
  15. dreamstar

    dreamstar Active Member

    There is nothing wrong with life. Its the world. The condition of the world. It sucks. Its not fit to live in. There has to be something better than this. I know there is. I dont feel we are throwing anything away when we suicide because life in this world, under these conditions, has very very little if any to offer. IMO anyway. Roobear it would be good if we could exchange life/death with others. Like those who want to die could give their lives to bring back those that died but who wanted to live or those that are dying but who want to live. What do you think? I would be happy to give up my life to bring someone back or save someone who wanted to live in this place.

    sonia
     
  16. dreamstar

    dreamstar Active Member

    Saying suicide is bad is only an opinion. There are no right or wrongs when it comes to suicide. Suicide is just the end result of unbearable severe pain/suffering. Sometimes there are other ways besides suicide. Sometimes there aren’t. Sometimes suicide is the only way. I do think its something that should be well thought out. It shouldn’t be something that you just do on a whim. You should know what your doing. And know that this is what you really need/want. I think if anything suicide is very sad. Not bad, just sad. I wish no one had to die. Ever. But I wish a lot of things…
     
  17. Newthought

    Newthought New Member

    Uhh....about the whole if A=B=C thing is an entirely logical presumption based on a theory considering the set properties have coherent values in our universe. And that the only deviation occurs when factors other then ABC are included but presumed to represent ABC.

    I dont want to get in an arguement about that, because it is Off-topic and I forgot the name of the Philisopher who proposed it. :tongue:

    INTENT was the absolute key word I was looking for. Selfishness is in the Intent. Recklessness is in the Outcome.

    If I tried to blow up an Atom Bomb to destroy New York for my personal gain of millions of dollars, then that is the INTENT without the OUTCOME.

    But if I trip on a wire which causes a A-Bomb to detonate and destroy the world, although that is an atrocity happening, that is OUTCOME without INTENT.

    A man/woman who commits Suicide without understanding the OUTCOME is not Selfish, as he/she is unaware of the effects and is merely commiting a right that they have.

    But with the Hitler arguement, where we assume Hitler had "Good INTENT" for a "Good OUTCOME", then he, by his standards, is correct. However, when we change the standards of which we judge him, from believing in the Aryan Destiny to the Reality of the Holocaust, does the whole "Good Intent/Good Outcome" turn to "Bad Intent/Bad Outcome"

    See with the Landlord example, I feel that you haven't isolated the specific variables and brought them back together to understand the point. The Landlord, whom had an "Intent" (nothing is Absolutistic) to make money, and was unaware of the full consequences of his action, then how can he be unreasonably "selfish" for actions he wasn't fully aware of.

    (Before I go on, Awareness is not Threshold).

    However, you do bring up a Threshold arguement and that is an important depending on the situation and nearly impractical in the Theoritical patterning. (Think of it as the Third Variable in an X,Y,Z sphere).

    In the end, I am reluctant to define Selfishness for that very reason, as Selfishness is SO relative and SO situational and depends nearly EVERYTHING on Perception, it's a bitch to define.

    Marx thought Captialism was Selfish, yet we all in our splendid glory shop at Mall's contributing to the suffering of the working Class. What yet then must we do now? Surrender and Start a revolution to end Corporate Greed?

    Or can we draw the line and say that we should raise the taxes for the rich by .06 percent to pay for Welfare for the poor.

    In the end let Webster define Selfish.

    1. Caring supremely or unduly for one's self; regarding one's own comfort, advantage, etc., in disregard, or at the expense, of those of others. "They judge of things according to their own private appetites and selfish passions." Cudworth. "In that throng of selfish hearts untrue."

    Ultimately, here is my opinion. If a Terminal patient commits Suicide, does everything in his power to consult his family and they agree to it. Is that then truly Suicide, or is it just an incovienent Death? Or is Death itself so wrong, as to do anything to bring risk of it Selfish? Is it truly Selfish to Bungee Jump knowing that I can very well Die, and cause my Death to put strain on others?

    Maybe I should stop eating my Burger right now, because I can't let the Cholerstral kill me before I see my Grandkids! Or maybe I need to kill myself so that Seven other people may live on my organs? I should surrender my right to own private property in order for the workers to inherit my property. I must never be allowed to kill myself because other people will view negatively of it and suffer from my death I mysnever be gay because other people will view negatively of it and my family will be suffer from ostrichzation.

    In the end, I believe we should learn to accept the reasonable consequences that occur when we excerise our own rights.

    And according to the definition and this sentance, I believe some suicides are not selfish acts, and others are. And also that everyone has a right to interepret Suicide as they accord. (So in many ways, I would agree with you on some accords).
    -------------------------------------

    And after all, you got it right.

    Balancing harms is the most critical piece of this.
     
  18. Flying Fox

    Flying Fox Well-Known Member

    sorry, I didn't really read most of the thread except for the first post.I'm mainly reluctant to kill myself because it would hurt the people I know, a lot.
    Whenever I think of this a voice says in my brain "you don't have to worry about that, you're going in oblivion" and then I think "What about THEM? I would hate it if someone I knew killed themselves, especially if I hardly knew why." And so on.

    I think killing oneself is selfish if you look at it one way, and not selfish at all if you look at it another way. Seriously, I believe that it's both selfish and not selfish, it that's even possible.

    If someone is experiencing a lot of pain, such as they're at the bottom of a large pile of friends, meaning that they would choose each other over you, and your grades have plummeted because of depression, and people at school shout from the windows or something or say bad things to you, I think they have a right to die if they are suffering so much.
    We all have heard the phrase "Put the (insert farm animal) out of its misery." It doesn't apply to just farm animals, it applies to everyone.
    The person with a situation like the one above has a right to die, suffering, putting up with friends just short of ignoring them.
    And when they kill themselves all the people and parents and friends go "Oh no!" Their grief will be real, they should be allowed to grieve, but if in the case of people you just short of ignore them say that the person who killed theirself was selfish; it sort of implies they were selfish too. Take a look at the Velventine Rabbit for goodness sake.
    It's not right to leave a toy untouched on the shelf for years until it's suddenly taken away, and go and cry over it.
    My point is that the person or toy might as well NOT HAVE BEEN THERE concerning the owner.

    On the selfishness of killing oneself, it really really does hurt people, especially the people who love them, and it unbalances things too.

    Sorry, I would be much more coherent if I wasn't exhausted or depressed. I sound stupid, sorry again.
    I'm not doing this very well, I should have drunk some tea before I wrote this.
     
  19. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    Regarding the "threshold argument", one must assume that not doing one's due diligence to determine what the outcome of an action will be, then that person is by their very nature be committing a selfish act. So, if one commits suicide assuming that others will be fine and move on without actually consulting the people who may be affected by their death, then they are in fact committing a selfish act by neglecting to do their due diligence.
     
  20. p3cky

    p3cky Account Closed

    i don't think it is selfish if someone kills them selves it is easy to see that they had some type mental conndition which isnt there fault.
     
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