why should we live for our own sake?

Discussion in 'Suicidal Thoughts and Feelings' started by wollie, Dec 2, 2012.

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  1. wollie

    wollie Member

    The word death is so soothing; it is the answer, the cure, for troubled mind, and painful heart
    It is why we are here, life provides us with an illusion while death is its solution, it is a universal truth, in the chaos of deceit, and so why are we running from it? We should embrace it, as it will embrace us, all things must end, so why not soon? Why are we taking our time? Life gives us everything, also good, but with the good comes the bad, and the bad can be very bad, something that even what supposed to be its counterpart ,the very good, is powerless against its evil, ladies and gentleman stories got it wrong, evil prevails, evil is the strong one, good is small, fragile, it is why we can see very little of it, if good was a commodity, it would actually be a very expensive one, evil is the cheap one, you can find it everywhere, but it is a sure business and you can always count it will get the job done, even if those are just perceptions in our mind, I can suggest that subjectively for us human beings those are real as liquid, the labels change still the concept isn't, it is always there, death offers a stop, not being born, if we do have the choice, why oh why do we choose life? This perfect illusion, Are we just optimistic?

    So many questions yet I seek an answer for only one.
    Why is it so important living? And I'm not talking about, ego, caring, survival mechanisms
    The answer's produced from those instincts, can sound reasonable, yet very biased, I want an answer, coming from a real place so it will be a real answer, it will be then rock solid

    Instead of hearing "oh now you're just talking nonsense" or "hay you can be a millionaire, you'll never know?" which by the way are really and utterly foolish and stupid answer's, let us take the first one for example,it is just a contradiction without any substance to it, and the second one, yes everyone can be a millionaire(undoubtedly,ya, right), and even if one is a millionaire, will it make him truly happy? Is it good for that person to become rich? is it good for people if this person getting rich?of course there are many more, for what I heard so far all came from the instinctive minds, and were never really good.

    This "millionaire answer" comes from people who assume that everyone on this planet are greedy, and live only for the purpose of money, I for example crave for love, but I will never have it, for its an illusion, today more than ever, I came to learn it is a contract, and not a very good one.

    So if not love then what? Why should we live for? Alright children, children are a good answer, so let me rephrase the question, why should we live for our own sake? Now that's a tough one, and it is the real question, the significance of the individual for its own, not other people, but its own.

    Call me whatever you like, just answer the damn question
     
  2. total eclipse

    total eclipse SF Friend Staff Alumni

    How can death be a solution hen death is the end it is never a solution Why is it so impt living because living gives us a chance to see what the future may bring be it whatever.
    Depression is treatable so why not treat it and get on with living for yourself then .
     
  3. Finance

    Finance Well-Known Member

    I have no children and I ask myself the same thing. There really is no one.

    Cowardice is how I go on. Too afraid.

    Well written, Wollie
     
  4. NYJmpMaster

    NYJmpMaster Have a question? Message Me Staff Member Forum Owner ADMIN

    It is simple really - the primary answer you already gave - the instinct to live to procreate is DNA imprint, but there is more because many do not have children and are still happy, and many have had children that are grown and gone and they still live and are happy long after procreation. Love is nice, but many people go through life or long periods of life without a true love and can be happy. Happiness may be a goal that is difficult to reach, but without true happiness life is still not without reward.

    Why do people climb mountains ? It is not just to get to the top- it is for the beautiful views and excitement of getting there. When they get there it is often the best view of all. Life is the same - it always ends in death but it is the journey and climb that makes death have meaning. Though you say death is soothing it is soothing only as a culmination of a journey, not an interruption. The purpose of life is to simply see the sites, to experience as many things as possible, which includes pain and sadness as well as happiness. The point of life is to give death meaning and so when you look back when nearing death you can say I saw as much and did as much as possible. Not everybody will make it to the top of the mountain - but when death is near you should be able to say to yourself at least that you climbed the mountain and not say you looked at it and decided the climb was not worth it without ever having seen the views for yourself to decide. The meaning and purpose in life is to live, not watch, experience and feel, fail or succeed; they all are their own reward. You may say that is all ego, to want to do things, but I do no think it is ego that makes a flower smell nice, a sunset beautiful, or a young puppy feel soft and warm and to enjoy the feel.

    Take Care

    Ben
     
  5. Oceans

    Oceans Well-Known Member

    A well thought out post.

    Although there maybe more bad than good things that happen, for some reason, those good moments make it worth living, just a thought.

    I've been looking for the answer and I haven't found a suitable one. To live is perhaps to find our own answer. With what you have written so far, I imagine whatever response that is given, you'll find reasons to argue the case. You're intelligent and can think for yourself so I can't imagine an answer that will satisfy you.

    From my observation of the world around me, people are afraid of death and prefer not to think about it until they or someone close to them died and they are thrush into realising death is a reality. Perhaps, knowing this may give you the opportunity to live how you like considering we're faced with death either way.

    I hope you continue your search and hope you find your way through it.
     
  6. wollie

    wollie Member

    Hello Ben

    I thank you for the response.

    first those who live life without children, are still very suited for the ego, caring, survival mechanisms block, the reasons to live from those perspectives are various, I'm looking for a true reason, a true meaning, which seems to not be in existence.

    second, a person wouldn't even think of climbing a mountain if he wouldn't have the thrill and excitement to do so, not everybody suited for life, that's why we have people killing themselves in the first place, the ancient Japanese and Romans figure this out long ago "if you can't handle your own existence or too ashamed, the sword is in your hands", it wasn't a taboo as today, and i have to admit, that for me, there is some release to it, a little sensation of freedom.

    in this journey a person is allowed to make an observation on he's or her's own perspective of good and bad, and decide what in one's life is more then the other, i claim that the good comes in small dosage, that i would think allot of people can agree with, when what is in a abundance is the smell of flowers death and divorce which is more common then ever before(love isn't a very good contract) can be set on the same scale.

    why even begin or continue a journey when you are scared beyond repair, yes you can be scared beyond repair, to know that you had a very bad experience, that you have barely recovered from and that you may experience this same badness ones more or worse, will you survive it? will you have the spirit to go through it ones more?

    my claim for the good versus bad is, when having a great experience you laugh(or not) and think "what a beautiful life it is", only the really bad experience can be end up with a dramatic ending such as death, a good experience will never bring you to such a place when examine the heights and lows.

    "experience and feel, fail or succeed; they all are their own reward" experience fail is a reward? when putting a label of a "lesson" to it perhaps, but is it really?

    without true happiness life isn't worth living, what is the reward of climbing a mountain if you already dead inside? and seeing the beautiful scenery doesn't do the trick, no, without happiness, life is empty, and hollow, you may contribute to society, something, so others may inherent the reward, you can call it, a reward by itself, but to the individual who isn't happy it didn't feel that way so for the individual, there is no reward.

    this is my question, what is it all about, the individual experience, why is it so important living? why are we giving it such a high place when it is simply an experience excused by the aforementioned block?

    and now although a bit unusual i will Finnish with a skit of some very smart group of people called Monty python "the universe just don't care"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R94SAF5NJrM
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 2, 2012
  7. wollie

    wollie Member

    Hello total eclipse

    I thank you for the response.

    death is a solutions, it stops everything, so its stops the good, but hay, you got rid of all the bad that was heavier then the good. depression can be dealt with in many ways but when you realize that the primary way is pills, which just make your brain numb and use it just so you can live? makes you wonder, why am i doing this? to live for the sake of living?

    I don't like what my future as it's starting to unfold, and I'm not the only one.
     
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  8. wollie

    wollie Member

    Hello Oceans

    I thank you for the response.

    I can revel a little secret, my dad past away 4 years ago, and i watched him whither away breath by breath as i took care of him for 2 years 24/7, and i can say, it was just a scarring experience. of course I'm happy that i did it, and that my dad wasn't in the hands of a stranger, still just a scarring experience, which comes back when a bad thing happen.
     
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  9. NYJmpMaster

    NYJmpMaster Have a question? Message Me Staff Member Forum Owner ADMIN

    You can refute everything and you can refuse to see - Yes es you can claim a beautiful view "I don't care" a flower"I dont care" any list of 2 million things, and I have had many many days myself that I didn't care enough at the time to appreciate it as well as I might have, many many many more that I would not take the time to go out and look for it - but they were all still there. It is not life that is lack - it is appreciation of life that is lacking. And that is as much choice as illness- it is attitude and not unchangeable. It is not happiness that is missing - but the unrealistic expectation of what happiness is. Happiness certainly does not mean no problems or conflict or struggles or sadness or their would be no happiness in all of sub-saharan africa and having been there I can promise that there is happiness there as well. And yes, failure can be a reward if you let it- I used to do golden gloves boxing - I did not think if I lost that it was a waste of time - I was happy to have tried, I failed at college the first try, and because of it gained experience that gave me a career and college cam years later, I now spend some days that I never move from bed and the vast majority of days I do not ever leave the house, Thanksgiving home alone, and have not had a phone call in years, literally, and yes I am depressed and sometimes would be happy if I died - but it takes nothing away from living and I would not choose to have not.
    Learn to appreciate the small things - on here all the time there are post "and to make it all worse my computer broke/I lost my wallet/ my neighbor,mom,dad,kids at school/ yelled at me -- if those things made it worse then by definition it was better before and most choose not to appreciate that; that is a choice. If you go through life with rose colored glasses you are are overly naieve, but the same can be said of those that choose to go through life seeing everything as dark and pretending that there are not better times as well as worse times - days that are better than others are a certainty if there are days that are worse. Learn to appreciate the better instead of holding out for the the truly amazing and spectacular and telling yourself anything less than that is not good enough. A very wise lady, member here in fact, told me an expression once,though used in a different context- "for some gold is not enough" . If you have idealized what happiness is then you will walk by it and pretend you didn't see it every day. Part of it is the depression that I suffer from as well - most of that is choice. Even in this conversation you trying to explain to yourself and others why there is no happiness for them or you so life is not worth living- instead use the same time to think what made another day even a little better than today and appreciate that "little bit better" - when you learn to appreciate the small then then it is possible to see and feel the bigger as well.
     
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  10. wollie

    wollie Member

    I can't refuse seeing that the Bad overlay the Good, I'm happy that it isn't your subjective experience but mine is, I never said that everything is bad i said "the Bad overlay the Good" so why is it so important living?

    this is the question, why is it so important living for one's sake? yet there is no answer.

    And no, without true happinnes it isn't worth living,not in my perspective, I'm not saying you should have happiness all the time, nor did i claim it, there need to be some extent of hope, choosing to believe in hope, is only a belief based on well, nothing.
    although that is not the question, that is presented, i can say, that we agree to disagree on this subject.

    when you learned what you learned,even when you failed your experience was learning in the first place because my guess is you love the sport, or something else in life. first you need to have "thrill and excitement to do so"

    I have weighted the bad and the good, and bad came victorious, and I'm not looking forward for the Bad to come nor to the good, and it can tell you something about the good i experienced so far, its not a broken computer.

    yes you have to have a starting point, which is no bad nor good, then you make a summation and looking on it all and decide. it is everyone's right.
     
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  11. pickwithaustin

    pickwithaustin Staff Alumni

    So much good you could do as a millionaire to help enrich the lives of others, to feed the poor, to house the homeless, to save the animals or the children. You have ironically only addressed the "millionaire" aspect from a greed aspect. Happiness in life is about doing something good and giving something back. You said becoming rich assumes everyone is greedy, and yet did not once consider that rather than greed you could do good with the money. Not only that, but a change in status in life such as that opens up many more doors and give opportunity to associate to a different type of people while out doing good with others. There's then opportunity to meet people you ordinarily may not have met.

    Only a person can find happiness for themselves. It's not in the pills and it is not in the therapy. Those are rungs in the ladder, but the person them self still has to do the climbing. If one sees everything before them as negative, everything shall remain bad and down. Recognizing the simple things in life and rejoicing in them is the key to wellness. So often there are plans upon plans being made to embrace death... but too few times those same are not making plans for wellness.
     
  12. always_naive

    always_naive Member

    Wollie, I agreed with you 100%. There are a lot more bads than goods in life. I tried to be positive even when I was faced with challenges. I told myself God was testing me. If I could overcome them and learned from them, I would become stronger, be a better person and be awarded in one way or another. Then, challenges were followed by bigger challenges. I kept kidding myself they were the darkest hours before dawn. At last, I was exhausted, and adding one last straw, I collapsed. I feel hopeless now and don't think there is anything worth fighting for in life.

    To be honest, I had only 1 good year in the last 10 years. I am not saying the years before the last decade were good. I was just young and I hadn't seen much of the world and life. No matter how bad my life could be then, I still had hope. After all these years, however, I have seen and done a lot of things (including meaningful things and things that made me happy) and have experienced what we are supposed to experience as human (good or bad). I can conclude that there are not many things I want to experience any more. If I go on with life, all I can expect is constant struggle (like we both agree there are more bads than goods). In reality, we will be getting more problems when we are getting older. We will be faced with health issues; job lost due to old age and bad health; lost of close ones, lack of retirement fund and the list will go on. What is the point of continuing living if we will only expect to see bad stuff most of the time in the rest of our life?
     
  13. wollie

    wollie Member

    Hello pickwithaustin

    thank you for the response.

    As i said the question presented here is "why should a person live for its own?" again when talking about the rich, maybe it can be good for others, but what if the person is greedy? and again we reach for the aforementioned block, caring is doing for others, sometimes it contributes for one, sometimes it isn't, in my question I'm trying to go beyond the instincts, a search for one undisputed truth. actually, in my opinion if people will ponder on this question, they will find something much more meaningful and solid, or not, I'm in search for the truth

    For now death seems as a viable option, if a person suffers and he can't take away the pain he should be allowed to have free thinking and not to live in a hell of a life. we should embrace death because its coming for us all, and for those who suffer maybe much sooner, a person can have such a degree of suffering equals to an incurable disease, that's why we have Dignitas,as for now not for depressed patients,it is though the same principle with people who suffer psychically a great deal, and you know what they are asking to be excepted as a client, they ask for the person to take he's own life before he reaches to a stage when one, in doctors opinion, can't make one's own decision, which means, that person may have years ahead of him, he even may get married(assuming one isn't married, just an example) as professor hoking, and yet people go there and doing the did, because they suffer so greatly, and they can't handle it anymore, nor willing to live is such a hell of a life. yes there are strong people, and there are less strong people, Not everyone is created equal, and some trapped in the seventh gate of hell.

    when talking about seeing the glass half full, i have suggested to ponder on the question and less on whether i think death is good for us or not, this is my opinion.
     
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  14. wollie

    wollie Member

    Hello fresh_p

    I too speak from a place of great despair, and even if my words are harsh, i think they need to be, we need to face those questions, answer to ourselves subjectively, for we are all thinking beings, and this harshness can bring those who don't agree maybe to reach a better insight, that is the nature of debate, and of course taking ones own life is a major decision, one we cannot change back, and take lightly, although it is one's right to do so. hence if one decide to do it, he better make sure it is the right one. i would suggest again, for both parties, those who agree on my opinion and those who are not, to ponder on the question, more then my own opinion on life, which is harsh i admit, in my opinion this is the only way for the truth.
     
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