Would you stop someone stealing actual food to eat if you worked at a store?

[Aurelia]

Stealing is wrong, full stop. As the owner of a store I am absolutely sickened when we get shop lifted. Somehow people think we get the products we sell for free. Everything in this fucking place I pay for and if some punk comes in and tries to take something they get a few cuffs on the back of the head before the cops come. You're stealing from a corporation and you're stealing from me, that's money they have taken out of my pocket. It's no different than someone walking off the street into your kitchen at home and helping themselves. Thievery is wrong there is absolutely no excuse for it. There can be no moral excuse for stealing from a person or from a corporation.

I'm fully respectful of your opinion. Just wondering if you're a private business owner or is it a chain store? Because you say that you pay for everything...so just curious.

Also, would you ever invite someone to your kitchen to help themselves if they were hungry? And would it matter if this person looked disheveled versus cleaned up?

 

[Ash600]

Having worked and also owned my own businesses for many years, automatic response would be to confront and try to stop someone shoplifitng. This I've done many times over the years irrespective of whether it was my own business or working for someone else. And yes, during that time there has been the odd response such as having knives and the odd hammer pulled on me. Even a few months ago, one such incident ended in a direct physical altercation where I gave as good as I got.

Now there have been some valid points made, as well as some interesting ones also. So I'd like to throw a few pointers out from my own perspective...

Some ask "why directly challenge someone knowing you could become collateral damage." - Well several reasons, such as viewing it as personal affront, that they are taking the piss out of you or your colleagues particularly when you're looking straight at them and they shout back at you "why are you looking at me for? I'm not doing anything" as items are being blatantly stuffed inside their jackets/trousers etc.
Also importantly, by turning a blind eye, means they'll see you as an easy target and come back repeatedly. Quite often word will get around and others will visit.
Independants or SME's indeed such things will directly impact upon the bottom line. As for the big multiple's ok so some may say "ahh they're big muvver fuckers they can absorb the losses." - On the whole, financially they most probably can. However, stores in their portfolio showing frequent losses will naturally light up on their radar. Possible outcomes? - How about a change in personnel of even store closure if viewed as being "economically not up to expected standards."

The matter of stealing food itself. People do steal it to sell it on. I've seen it and also been told about it from others. There's a local grocery store not so far away from where I worked. Part of a chain and often targeted usually between the hours of when they open at 8am to 9:30am because after that time, that's when their security guard would begin his shift.
Now it wasn't just the usual items getting lifted such as jars of coffee, but people have walked in to stuff items such as legs of frozen lamb down their trackie bottoms to sell on later on. (The lamb, not their tracksuit bottoms).
So basically, anything which people use on a regular basis will be targeted on their shopping lists, be it food items and especially toiletries such as toothbrushes, toothpastes, bodysprays, shower gels, sanitary towels - yes sanitary towels.

As I said, challenging someone from stealing would for me anyway be more or less an autonomous response based on what I've seen and experienced over the years.
However, in this particular case there are obviously more underlying issues leading to quite the moral and ethical dilemna. To steal to eat to feed themselves or their families it's a fight for survival and it may be the only option they have. Desparate measures, desparate actions. It's a tough one to give a definite answer to.
I can say that in this day and age, where there is more reliance on food banks, food poverty and starvation exists, it's an indictment of the fucked up society in which we inhabit. But that's probably for another thread.

 

[Aurelia]

Having worked and also owned my own businesses for many years, automatic response would be to confront and try to stop someone shoplifitng. This I've done many times over the years irrespective of whether it was my own business or working for someone else. And yes, during that time there has been the odd response such as having knives and the odd hammer pulled on me. Even a few months ago, one such incident ended in a direct physical altercation where I gave as good as I got.

Now there have been some valid points made, as well as some interesting ones also. So I'd like to throw a few pointers out from my own perspective...

Some ask "why directly challenge someone knowing you could become collateral damage." - Well several reasons, such as viewing it as personal affront, that they are taking the piss out of you or your colleagues particularly when you're looking straight at them and they shout back at you "why are you looking at me for? I'm not doing anything" as items are being blatantly stuffed inside their jackets/trousers etc.
Also importantly, by turning a blind eye, means they'll see you as an easy target and come back repeatedly. Quite often word will get around and others will visit.
Independants or SME's indeed such things will directly impact upon the bottom line. As for the big multiple's ok so some may say "ahh they're big muvver fuckers they can absorb the losses." - On the whole, financially they most probably can. However, stores in their portfolio showing frequent losses will naturally light up on their radar. Possible outcomes? - How about a change in personnel of even store closure if viewed as being "economically not up to expected standards."

The matter of stealing food itself. People do steal it to sell it on. I've seen it and also been told about it from others. There's a local grocery store not so far away from where I worked. Part of a chain and often targeted usually between the hours of when they open at 8am to 9:30am because after that time, that's when their security guard would begin his shift.
Now it wasn't just the usual items getting lifted such as jars of coffee, but people have walked in to stuff items such as legs of frozen lamb down their trackie bottoms to sell on later on. (The lamb, not their tracksuit bottoms).
So basically, anything which people use on a regular basis will be targeted on their shopping lists, be it food items and especially toiletries such as toothbrushes, toothpastes, bodysprays, shower gels, sanitary towels - yes sanitary towels.

As I said, challenging someone from stealing would for me anyway be more or less an autonomous response based on what I've seen and experienced over the years.
However, in this particular case there are obviously more underlying issues leading to quite the moral and ethical dilemna. To steal to eat to feed themselves or their families it's a fight for survival and it may be the only option they have. Desparate measures, desparate actions. It's a tough one to give a definite answer to.
I can say that in this day and age, where there is more reliance on food banks, food poverty and starvation exists, it's an indictment of the fucked up society in which we inhabit. But that's probably for another thread.

Okay, first things first, I have to ask, how in the god's honest fuck have you seen people sell food to get high? Because of all my years of using, and seeing others use, and all the creative ways I've seen/heard of to make money to get high, that one is admittedly new to me. Lol. Do they just, like, walk up to strangers and ask them if they want frozen legs of lamb (but speaking of, you kind of got to give them props at least for being able to tolerate something that cold stuffed in their pants, haha)? Or some other way...?

 

[Slothish]

I'm fully respectful of your opinion. Just wondering if you're a private business owner or is it a chain store? Because you say that you pay for everything...so just curious.

Also, would you ever invite someone to your kitchen to help themselves if they were hungry? And would it matter if this person looked disheveled versus cleaned up?

I'm the co-owner of a private business. The two of us have sunk all of our money into this venture. So to have someone come in and slip something under the jacket is maddening.
To be honest I wouldn't invite someone I don't know to my home to eat. I do buy meals for homeless people in my neighborhood, especially now with the cold weather.
Sorry if I came across too strong in my previous post, shoplifting really gets my blood boiling. There seems to be a perception that if you own a business you are rich and that most certainly isn't the case for most business owners. When Covid restrictions hit I was shocked at how quickly some of my neighbors went out of business. To me stealing from my store is no different than inviting someone over to my house and after they leave realizing that they've stolen a lamp.

 

[Aurelia]

I'm the co-owner of a private business. The two of us have sunk all of our money into this venture. So to have someone come in and slip something under the jacket is maddening.
To be honest I wouldn't invite someone I don't know to my home to eat. I do buy meals for homeless people in my neighborhood, especially now with the cold weather.
Sorry if I came across too strong in my previous post, shoplifting really gets my blood boiling. There seems to be a perception that if you own a business you are rich and that most certainly isn't the case for most business owners. When Covid restrictions hit I was shocked at how quickly some of my neighbors went out of business. To me stealing from my store is no different than inviting someone over to my house and after they leave realizing that they've stolen a lamp.

Nah, you didn't come across too strong. Ethics tends to be a passionate subject, is all

And while I do understand that you said you feel it's wrong to steal anyway (which is totally fine, and like I said, I respect that), I can now more so understand why it's particularly frustrating for you, personally, when people do it, being that you're a small business owner. If I owned a small business, and someone stole from me, I think I'd probably feel the same way, actually.

But the reason I asked the second question was because some people don't even realize it and tend to judge how worthy others are of help based on how they look. I've seen psychology experiments done on something similar. A regular looking person in a suit asking strangers for a dollar or a disheveled person asking for the same...most people would prefer to give it to the guy in the suit, even though clearly, he'd probably be the one who is less in need of it. But that's also kind of understandable because you don't expect the guy in the suit to go and get high/drunk with it (but they still do, at times lol).

 

[Aurelia]

Oh, and the other thing I wanted to say to you, @Ash600, was that, yes, frequent losses would start to make a difference even for large corporations. But then that's why they typically get loss prevention people. The ones who don't, such as my store, are in fact seen as easy targets, because we don't typically call the cops for someone stealing a few dollars worth of shit, even if we do catch them in the act (now, if they stole several boxes worth of merchandise, however, which has actually happened recently to us, then we would...but that's very rare). But of course, different people will see things differently. My store manager cares more than I do because she has to account for shrink to her DM and it affects her reputation as a manager...or in other words, how good she is at her job. Me, however, I'd only be held accountable if I literally showed that I just didn't care at all, which as I said previously, I wouldn't do. So that clearly affects my opinion on the matter. Naturally, people care more when something affects them, personally. Which is understandable. But truthfully, from what I've seen, on a typical day, I would say we lose maybe 20 to 40 bucks worth from people stealing shit...which really isn't shit to my company. It does add up, I'll give you that, but compared to what they make in profit...

Plus, I would be absolutely shocked if other assistant managers and even MY manager never "damaged out" an item for personal use her damn self.

 

[Slothish]

Nah, you didn't come across too strong. Ethics tends to be a passionate subject, is all

And while I do understand that you said you feel it's wrong to steal anyway (which is totally fine, and like I said, I respect that), I can now more so understand why it's particularly frustrating for you, personally, when people do it, being that you're a small business owner. If I owned a small business, and someone stole from me, I think I'd probably feel the same way, actually.

But the reason I asked the second question was because some people don't even realize it and tend to judge how worthy others are of help based on how they look. I've seen psychology experiments done on something similar. A regular looking person in a suit asking strangers for a dollar or a disheveled person asking for the same...most people would prefer to give it to the guy in the suit, even though clearly, he'd probably be the one who is less in need of it. But that's also kind of understandable because you don't expect the guy in the suit to go and get high/drunk with it (but they still do, at times lol).

That's very interesting about the experiment, we all are so caught up in the surfaces we present to the world and think we know people based on that. Most of the meals I buy are for people who frequent the neighborhood and I have a bit of relationship with. It has bitten me a few times as I'm then perceived as an easy mark for a meal but it sure does my soul good to buy someone a meal when it's -20 out. I may think I have problems but it is nothing compared to living on the street scrambling for shelter and food.
I like that you've challenged my perceptions re shoplifting, never judge before you've walked a mile in their shoes. Most of the shoplifters we get are teenagers or bored housewives. Usually the people who are really desperate are so obvious it's not even a challenge to spot them. My favorites are the quick change artists, I love shutting them down and seeing the look of frustration on their face, guess what guy I can do math in my head too!

 

[Aurelia]

That's very interesting about the experiment, we all are so caught up in the surfaces we present to the world and think we know people based on that. Most of the meals I buy are for people who frequent the neighborhood and I have a bit of relationship with. It has bitten me a few times as I'm then perceived as an easy mark for a meal but it sure does my soul good to buy someone a meal when it's -20 out. I may think I have problems but it is nothing compared to living on the street scrambling for shelter and food.
I like that you've challenged my perceptions re shoplifting, never judge before you've walked a mile in their shoes. Most of the shoplifters we get are teenagers or bored housewives. Usually the people who are really desperate are so obvious it's not even a challenge to spot them. My favorites are the quick change artists, I love shutting them down and seeing the look of frustration on their face, guess what guy I can do math in my head too!

Mostly, you're absolutely right...teenagers steal all the time from us too, which is why they get told to leave their backpacks up front every time they come in after school. And the second would probably be addicts because they're broke, because they spend every dime they get on getting high. So in a way, I would even say that, yes, their situation is basically their own fault. They don't want to stop using, so they're always broke, so they steal either food or other necessities, or even just dumb shit at times. That's their choice to live that way, and some find it to be a miserable fucking life (I know I sure as hell did), but others are at a point where they're so used to it that it's all they know and they don't even care. Some are ironically actually hoping to get caught and go to jail, just because they dont see another way out of their situation and don't want to be out on the street in the cold anymore...until summer hits again, and then they're right back out there doing the exact same thing as before. So it's really situation-dependent and people are all different...it's a very complicated and "non-black-and-white" issue.

 

[Witty_Sarcasm]

This isn't shoplifting but sometimes people buy a bunch of soda on a food card, dump it all out, then return the cans for money. One guy did this in order to buy alcohol, but they wouldn't allow him to do it. I think that's incredibly wasteful, especially since some people actually need the card to buy food.

 

[Aurelia]

This isn't shoplifting but sometimes people buy a bunch of soda on a food card, dump it all out, then return the cans for money. One guy did this in order to buy alcohol, but they wouldn't allow him to do it. I think that's incredibly wasteful, especially since some people actually need the card to buy food.

Oh, totally. People sell their food stamps, buy baby formula with their food stamps and then sell it, or trade food stamps with random strangers for cash and pay for their food shopping that way, getting about half the cash in return. I've fucking seen it all....or at least, so I thought, until Ash said he saw people actually selling totally random food items to get high, lol.

 

[Aurelia]

I just want to say one thing, though, that's totally off topic here...I absolutely LOVE the fact that we're all able to talk about these things and respect each others' opinions, here. Everyone who participated in this thread so far has been completely open-minded and mature about it, which I fucking love to see.

 

[Witty_Sarcasm]

Oh, totally. People sell their food stamps, buy baby formula with their food stamps and then sell it, or trade food stamps with random strangers for cash and pay for their food shopping that way, getting about half the cash in return. I've fucking seen it all....or at least, so I thought, until Ash said he saw people actually selling totally random food items to get high, lol.

Yeah, never seen that one before. But some people probably have nothing to drink and then these people just go and pour all the soda out, like wtf. Or using it to buy really expensive things...when we had it, we would buy stuff like milk, bread, hot dogs, and whatever else. Now we can only get $15 a month if we apply, even though we are in the income limits. That wouldn't even last one shopping trip.

 

[Witty_Sarcasm]

Oh and supposedly my neighbor gets $600 in food stamps...like how is that even possible? Just for one person?

 

[Aurelia]

Oh and supposedly my neighbor gets $600 in food stamps...like how is that even possible? Just for one person?

You sure it's just for him? No kids or anything or other family members? Or maybe that includes some kind of cash benefits also?

 

[Witty_Sarcasm]

You sure it's just for him? No kids or anything or other family members? Or maybe that includes some kind of cash benefits also?

No, she's the only one who lives there. And I'm not really sure, but I find it hard to believe she'd get that much just by herself. That's more like something a family of 5 would get.

 

[Slothish]

I just want to say one thing, though, that's totally off topic here...I absolutely LOVE the fact that we're all able to talk about these things and respect each others' opinions, here. Everyone who participated in this thread so far has been completely open-minded and mature about it, which I fucking love to see.

You are so right, that is what makes this forum so awesome.

I forgot to mention that unfortunately what we sell is really easy to resell on ebay, craigslist etc. So we occasionally get targeted by pros and I have to admit to a grudging respect as in 'How the hell did they get that out of here?' Human ingenuity knows no limits, if only they'd use that brain power in another way.

 

[eF577w0mK]

but you definitely don't hand them cash because it won't end up getting used on food

Fair point.

You seem to have a very rigid view of "all crime is bad in absolutely all cases". But who gets to decide that? Just because this is the way our society is designed, who is to say that it is necessarily the correct or best way? Just because something is against the law doesn't necessarily mean it's a good law. Or are you looking at it more so in terms of "stealing is always bad", even from large corporations and rich people?

I wouldn't go as far as saying that stealing is always bad. Rather, my problem is that I struggle seeing why in this particular scenario allowing stealing would be good at all, given that there are better options (try to give them food in a legitimate way) and it also has negative consequences for society as a whole which will end up affecting the same type of people who did the stealing (they are framing themselves in conflict with society, without need of help, and promoting egoism as an ethical posture).

A lot of people think they "need" a lot of things that they don't actually need. And a computer is one of those because one can still most certainly survive without one...even in today's society.

I think that's an arbitrary line. I don't understand why stop at food, or why the bare minimum to not die of starvation is an acceptable definition of necessity. I find problematic the classification of poor people into people who "really need" help, and others who are "fine" and are just expecting too much of life somehow. I think that eventually leads to the view that as long as people are physically fine then society has fulfilled all responsibility towards them; it's a rather low view of happiness.

I'd just pretend like I don't see a damn thing. However, if my store manager DOES happen to be there, and she tells me to follow someone stealing food, then that's what I'm going to fucking do because, like I said, I would never actually give her the impression that I don't care.

Here I would be absolutely on the side of Kant and ask, what would happen if everybody acted that way? Jumping over rules and laws all the time, but pretend not to; nobody does their job as expected but rather twist it secretly when they see it as "morally necessary". I just don't think society can function that way. If people can't trust each other, if numbers don't add up, that puts society on a very shaky basis, makes it impredictable and impossible to control. Because this is not a matter of one person ignoring stealing in one store, but rather of similar things ocurring systematically in all of that and other industries, and of people all over society avoiding regulation for similar reasons.

 

[eF577w0mK]

Some ask "why directly challenge someone knowing you could become collateral damage." - Well several reasons, such as viewing it as personal affront, that they are taking the piss out of you or your colleagues particularly when you're looking straight at them and they shout back at you "why are you looking at me for? I'm not doing anything".

I think another way I would frame the issue of confrontation is as a matter of alienation. If we refuse to interact with people on the basis that they are potentially violent or crazy, then they are destined to remain as outsiders of the community. In a sense, people are violent because they think that there's no other way of solving their problems because people don't care about them. It's a vicious cycle: people are violent because they are alienated, and people alienates them because they are "violent".

 

[Ash600]

Okay, first things first, I have to ask, how in the god's honest fuck have you seen people sell food to get high? Because of all my years of using, and seeing others use, and all the creative ways I've seen/heard of to make money to get high, that one is admittedly new to me. Lol. Do they just, like, walk up to strangers and ask them if they want frozen legs of lamb (but speaking of, you kind of got to give them props at least for being able to tolerate something that cold stuffed in their pants, haha)? Or some other way...?

These guys will hit the local pubs, cafes, bookies etc. Word gets around, they become "a face"and then even local housing estates will be added to their lists of locations to peddle their gains.
Leg of lamb guy, he was actually a methadone patient of mine. He was spotted by one of my members of staff throwing shanks of meat down his pants whilst she was shopping at the same place. There was even one time when he knocked on her door enquiring if she would be interested in....."the contents of his trackie bottoms."
It became a bit of a running joke whenever he came in for his daily dose of methadone as to guess what meat he was packing down his kegs. As for being able to tolerate having frozen cuts of meat down his pants, well he did once claim he was ex-french foreign legion (guy was French-Algerian). Perhaps it was part of his induction training?

Plus, I would be absolutely shocked if other assistant managers and even MY manager never "damaged out" an item for personal use her damn self.

One staff member I had, prior to working for me she used to work at medium sized chain convenient store. She used to tell me that yes, her manager did use to "damage out goods" especially the biscuits for the staff canteen and the other odd occasional goodie.
Nothing though compared to one of the local warehouses of a medical wholesaler who used to supply me. The shit that went on behind doors. It got to the point where after two stocktakes in a year, the cost of lost stock was so high, management decided not to renew the lease but to cut their losses and just close that branch down.

 

[Aurelia]

These guys will hit the local pubs, cafes, bookies etc. Word gets around, they become "a face"and then even local housing estates will be added to their lists of locations to peddle their gains.
Leg of lamb guy, he was actually a methadone patient of mine. He was spotted by one of my members of staff throwing shanks of meat down his pants whilst she was shopping at the same place. There was even one time when he knocked on her door enquiring if she would be interested in....."the contents of his trackie bottoms."
It became a bit of a running joke whenever he came in for his daily dose of methadone as to guess what meat he was packing down his kegs. As for being able to tolerate having frozen cuts of meat down his pants, well he did once claim he was ex-french foreign legion (guy was French-Algerian). Perhaps it was part of his induction training?



One staff member I had, prior to working for me she used to work at medium sized chain convenient store. She used to tell me that yes, her manager did use to "damage out goods" especially the biscuits for the staff canteen and the other odd occasional goodie.
Nothing though compared to one of the local warehouses of a medical wholesaler who used to supply me. The shit that went on behind doors. It got to the point where after two stocktakes in a year, the cost of lost stock was so high, management decided not to renew the lease but to cut their losses and just close that branch down.

Wow, that's unbelievable...like I said, I've heard of a lot of different ways, but legs of lamb is definitely a new one...haha.