Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by Terry, Sep 11, 2010.

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  1. Terry

    Terry Antiquities Friend Staff Alumni

    Ok I had just finished watching the film United 93 (about the only plane to not hit its target on 9/11 due to passengers fighting back).
    Was moved to tears tbh.

    I then flick over for the news and get the whole preacher about to burn 200 korans bullshit.

    They then went over to NY and started talking about the planned Islamic centre being built at the 9/11 site :eek:hmy: This was the first I'd heard of it.

    Now, I dont know about you but I'm English, living in Britain and I was appalled at the thought, wondered what everyone else was thinking on the subject, I mean New Yorkers must be sickened by the
  2. IV2010

    IV2010 Well-Known Member

    I agree with you....
    how can they even consider building that there...
  3. Krem

    Krem Well-Known Member

    ...really? Wow. Ok..

    A) It'll not be built on the site, it'll be built NEAR the site.
    B) It'll be a community center, a huge building not only for prayer.
    C) The terrorists who hijacked the planes are a TINY fraction of muslim believers. Burning the qur'an is similar to burning the bible because there are cults who sacrifice people in the name of christ. Thinking that all muslims are terrorists is such prejudice, it's almost funny if it didn't lead to other violence and hate-crimes.
    D) If you'll mention the flag-burning, that is a response to the US invading in the middle-east, slaughtering civilians in an attempt to "bring peace", revenge, or what-have-you. There the message is against the nation at the whole, or more specifically, those in control. Being offended is natural, since it's not a logical way to do it, with the whole "some people in the US are also against the war". Ignorance is not one-sided.
    E)Most muslims are actually peaceful, and wouldn't dream of killing thousands of civilians because.. whatever reason they thought they had. Just like most people in the US aren't bible-thumping, ignorant, racist, gun-worshipping, morbidly obese, irrational twits.

    The only reason people think building this to be a bad thing, is because people think that Islam=Terrorist. The idea was, I do believe, to dispel that illusion, to show the ignorant ****s that muslims are people, too. Nice people. They're not 'out there to kill your children'. Hell, the US army has killed more civilians than the terrorist group did.

    "OMG [name] was [religion]! All [religion] must be like [name]!"
  4. LetItGo

    LetItGo Staff Alumni

    I don't think it will ever be built tbh, it's bound to become a flashpoint. If you were mayor of NY, would really wanna deal with the street protests and the bad publicity on a never ending basis, every Sept 11? No, better to move it elsewhere I think.
  5. Krem

    Krem Well-Known Member

    That'd kinda ruin the point. The elected official(s) should instead explain to the masses why this is being done, and why it's not a bad thing.

    I mean, we've all seen how agreeable the residents of the USA can be, when presented with facts and reasoning. Homosexuals can marry all over the place, there's true freedom of (and from) religion, schools are only teaching actual facts, and everything else we civilised society take pride in.

    (Note that, in this sarcasm, I'm fully aware that some of you are actually rational. But there are still some in power, directly and indirectly, who are not. But now I kinda ruined the "joke".

    And saying "Oh wait" is just bad, since it's explaining the sarcasm, which cheapens it to the point of unfunniness.)
  6. Robin

    Robin Guest

    I thought there was a whole furore going on, like, the folks involved with funding at getting permission have only raised 19 million but need 100 million, one of those in charge has a rap sheet taller than most people, refuse to take funding from terrorists but also refuse to call terrorists, terrorists :/

    Also, didn't they deny permission for a Catholic Church to "rebuild" what was destroyed by terrorists in 911?

    No idea, I just hear things :p
  7. aoeu

    aoeu Well-Known Member

    The mayor of New York supports freedom of religion in general (one of the basic freedoms that the US was once thought to stand for... though times like this I really wonder) and this project in particular (for that reason.)

    Islam is not un-American. Opposing Islam is.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2010
  8. Zurkhardo

    Zurkhardo Well-Known Member

    An Islamic equivalent of the JCC or YMCA located two blocks from Ground Zero in a crowded city should hardly merit such sensationalist furor.

    No one has any qualms about the strip club located just as close. If an interfaith center opened to everyone is more offensive to the memory of 9/11 victims than a nude bar, clearly we have some reflecting to do.
  9. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Well-Known Member

    If one owned the property it would be withing their rights in the US to build a monument to the hijackers with a big picture of everyone that died burning in hell on a plaque. Would it be horrible? Yes. Would it be withing their rights? Yes.
  10. Mordeci

    Mordeci Banned Member

    I am actually from NY and was there when 9/11 happened, my uncle died in the attacks actually, but thats another matter. I can understand where the anger comes from but there is something greater that I think people are loosing track of and that is we are AMERICANS, as the great George Carlin once said "we have rights that other people can only dream of". If some misguided idiot from flordia wants to burn himself a bunch of quran's I say let him, if some college kid wants to burn the American flag in protest on top of a stack of bibles I say more power to him, and if an Iman wants to build a 13 story mosque 20 a few blocks away from ground zero then the consitution says let him, is it insenestive, yes but it's his right. Plus on a personal note a muslim center for prayer isn't as insentive to me at least as thoese street urchants who peedle their 9/11 memorial stuff to tourist.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 12, 2010
  11. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Well-Known Member

    Heh heh, pointing out George Carlin is ironic because Carlin was a staunch advocate of the 'Your rights don't mean anything because the government can and will take them away whenever they please' position, and the USA has been going that way a while now.

    Good things die, and due to good political maneuvering they have liberties dying to thunderous applause.
  12. Mordeci

    Mordeci Banned Member

    Actually after the memorial today they had dueling protest for and against the mosuqe, a friend was there and she said that it was a pretty large crowd that was split right down the middle, but recent poll numbers show that people genuily want the mosque moved the numbers range from 65% to 81% (but the 81% was from the NY post which is owned by Rupert Murdoch so I don't trust it, but that's just me)
  13. Mordeci

    Mordeci Banned Member

    Can't argue with that really, but I think it was early Carlin, he said it in front of the supreme court actually when the seven dirty words trial was taking place, when he wasn't so jaded.
  14. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Well-Known Member

    Yes, he was arrested for noting he did not believe in 'identity' when they asked him for ID. It's funny how so many police officers forget to remember that not carrying ID is *not* a felony and that they can't indiscriminately ask anybody for anything.

    I'm seriously thinking of a long-term plan to move to France or Germany where people *do* flip cars and riot if the government gets out of hand. If the Americans truly wanted to honour the ideas of the founding father's they'd be a paramilitary group that regularly threatened to overthrow the government when the government was being ridiculous.
  15. Mordeci

    Mordeci Banned Member

    If I remeber correctly that was actually at a Lenny Bruce show where he was arrested for cursing (the last person ever to be arrested for that I believe). I always wanted to move to some place where the people are more passinoate about their politics and their goverment, but you never know where life takes you. Unfourently American politics are so splintered at this point I don't see any viable threat to the goverment unless it is on a economic or racial level, both of which is virtually impossible to mobilze effectively

    Anyway to bring it back to the issue of the thread I can understand the anger, but the one thing I can't understand is the hatred. I went to a tea party convention once just to get a feel of the people and you can virtually see the anger rising off these people and I heard that the NY anti-mosque protsters were a similiar ideological bunch. I see them in news interviews and they talk as if the muslims are taking over and that the country is under ideological siege by the middle east all through this 13 story community center. Like I said I can understand anger, its just the hate that bothers and frightenes me.
  16. LetItGo

    LetItGo Staff Alumni

    I wasn't aware of his support, that comes as a surprise tbh. I wonder if its been thought through. Its all very well to say you support freedom of religion, something entirely different to deal with the consequences of that belief system day in, day out.
  17. Edgar Roni Figaro

    Edgar Roni Figaro Well-Known Member

    You want to know where the hate comes from? It comes from a group of people who represent the majority of Americans being told they are racists, bigots, islamophobics, and any other name you want to make up simply because they want to hold onto American culture and American values.

    And I will tell you as an agnostic who does not believe in the Christian god or the muslim god that this nation was founded on christian principles and no muslims principles and the fact that a pastor who wants to burn the koran is attacked throughout the world when he has the freedom of speech to do so, yet on the same breath a muslim is allowed to build a mosque right next to ground zero and he is not told to back off for being insensitive is utter bull shit.

    If the pastor is told not to burn the koran because it is insensitive to muslims but the muslim who is building the mosque near ground zero is not told the same thing when what he is doing is clearly insensitive to ground zero victims what does that say?

    I completely understand why the vast majority of Americans are angry and why many are filled with hate. When a person is called a racists, hate monger, islamophobic simply because they dont want to see a mosque that was previously named the same name as a mosque that was built in Spain to celebrate the slaughter of Spaniards I can understand where the hate comes from.

    Hate is a natural response for people who are being repressed and told they are hate mongers while watching everything they stand for get attacked and destroyed. Muslims all around the world burn American flags while our soldiers die in the field trying to defend these barbarians. Are we supposed to be happy about that? They don't even have the consideration to build a mosque outside the ground zero area while they burn our flags around the world and we are supposed to be ok with that?

    This country has lost its balls.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 12, 2010
  18. Krem

    Krem Well-Known Member

    I guess the notion of being 'the bigger man' is lost on you.

    And how is it insensitive to the victims? Oh no, it's the same religion! Not the same people, but that's irrelevant- All muslims are clearly terrorists.
  19. Axiom

    Axiom Account Closed

    ? Ive always thought the point was to someday all come together and realize together that we are exactly the same.

    Guess not yet....
  20. LetItGo

    LetItGo Staff Alumni the next world, maybe in the next world.
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