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"you never know"

cyrano

SF Supporter
#1
“You never know what the future might hold” is something a mental health professional, parent, spouse, or stranger on the internet might say to someone contemplating suicide. Perfectly good advice to a 20-year-old and in fact when I was 20ish, I took it. It didn’t work very well but I like to think I gave it a good try.

But 50 years later, the inescapable fact is that there’s not nearly so much future left. I’ve been low-energy depressed ever since 19; now, I’m too weak to do physical labor (or much of anything physical) and the recent cognitive tests I took tell me that I’m losing those skills anyway. The only thing that I enjoy in life any more is Mexican food and cheap margaritas and even those in moderation—too greasy, too acidic.

And if I were interested in making a better, happier rest of my life, I would like to think I’d be more energetic about seeking it—traveling the world to see what there is to see, making new friends, making better margaritas—but none of those things have any interest.

I simply don’t care if I live or die. There are fewer than five people who might have some emotion about my death; I suspect my wife and my “grandchildren” are not in that group. And that fact doesn’t bother me, so the old trope about what would they say about me at my funeral holds no power. I’ve already left permission for whoever might want to pay for a funeral to save their money.

(and as for cures or alleviations, I’ve tried 11 different depression meds, ketamine, TMS, and ECT; the latter may have played a role in my cognitive loss, or it may have just been decades of corrosive depression)
 

seabird

meandering home
SF Supporter
#2
hugs if they help.

@cyrano I'm sorry you have been withstanding the depression for so very long. The pain of not caring is frightening. I'm glad you are here. If this is not okay to ask, ignore it. If you could find care within yourself what or whom would it be for? Where would you, or where were you interested in traveling?
 
#3
I’ve tried 11 different depression meds, ketamine, TMS, and ECT
There are treatments that I would have recommended before any of those, but it doesn't sound like you have much interest in other treatments.

I'm sorry that treatments haven't worked for you. I'm sorry that you've suffered so much for so long.
 

cyrano

SF Supporter
#4
Welp, I let that post get away from me. I sat down to write something more closely related to the idea that the standard advice given to depressives and potential suicides that they don't know...tomorrow might be better. As I said there, I took that advice to heart and, along with a deep dive into my professional work, did a pretty good job of masking things for, well, decades. But now, I find the "advice" annoying.

Since getting old, one of my wry, pithy ripostes has been that I no longer buy green bananas. Well, the advice to just hold on, things might get better, is to me like buying green bananas when the chances that they'll still be green when I die increase every day, and my intention was to ask this crowd of elders if anyone else had a similar thought. But instead, I guess my inner pity party came out. All of what I wrote was true but it was like trying to pop a blister and puncturing an artery instead, I guess.

In any case, has anyone else in this subgroup ever had the thought that telling people our age that things might be better tomorrow is pretty absurd when the number of tomorrows you have seem to shrink exponentially even if they go at the same 24-hour pace?

As for the queries, thanks for your concern but I'm not in a place where I'm interested in opening a vein, let alone an artery.

Later, C de B

ps- may71 is right about my disinterest in trying anything new. If electric shocks didn't do the trick, then I wouldn't put a lot of faith in acupuncture...and faith is essential to the efficacy of all such cures, is it not?
 

cyrano

SF Supporter
#6
No. That said, there's no treatment that works well for everyone. There's no guarantees.
Well, in my sample set of one, no treatment, therapy, counseling, or alternative procedure like ECT or TMS worked. I guess there’s the vagus nerve thing, psychedelics other than ketamine (which was pleasant), and ayahuasca taken in a sufficiently protected environment but I’m tired of throwing money and time at them.
 
#7
Just about anything is better than a suicide attempt. If you're inclined to try anything, Chinese herbal medicine would be best imho, then acupuncture/moxabustion. There's more info about it in the link in my signature.
I’m tired of throwing money and time at them
Understandably.
 

cyrano

SF Supporter
#8
well, to get things back on track with the thread topic (and thanks to may71 for his gracious private note), my problem with "you never know (things might get better)" is that it's a valid thing to tell a teenager or young adult because there, it is literally true.

I know from experience. After a near-suicide experience at age 21, a few months at offshore construction school followed by my employer sending me to interesting, scary places was definitely an improvement over my own private pity party. Perfect? Nah; I was still f**ked up, still pathologically shy, still so ugly I couldn't pick up a girl with a forklift, but I had a place to go every day (literally- offshore construction, esp. 50-200 miles from the nearest land) was a 7/12 arrangement and in certain parts of the world, the weather window for working was only 4-6 months long, and after enough near-maiming experiences, decided that trying college again had a lower mortality rate. Thus began a 45-year life of professional satisfaction and personal bolivian, er, oblivion, studded with a few women who could look past my face and see...well, whatever it was they saw. Or felt. I was, and am (suicidal ideation excepted), a pretty stable, reliable, self-supporting, no-addiction person, which a couple of those women admitted was its own sort of aphrodisiac. Any port in a storm, I s'pose.

But I digress. Two of my three recent therapists have argued against suicide on the ground that I should hang around on the possibility of the circumstances of my life improving. The first one said such a thing 7 years ago and I think she said it out of desperation or boredom, filling up the time until the hour was over and it was part of her trope. In my mean moments, I like to think I drove her out of the profession.

OK, at this point I'm going to use a visual to help explain where I'm coming from. The "it will get better" thing is at the far right side of the attached document that's far from finished. The software I use to create things like this is Scapple, usually called "mind mapping" software. Since I get lost so often in the thicket of what's left of my mind, I find it indispensable for bringing some logical structure to, well, anything. And I think the question of resolving whether to end one's own life is worthy of rigorous analysis in answering it.

On that happy note, have a good 'un. purpose meaning happiness picture.jpg
 

Wary

SF Supporter
#9
Well, in my sample set of one, no treatment, therapy, counseling, or alternative procedure like ECT or TMS worked. I guess there’s the vagus nerve thing, psychedelics other than ketamine (which was pleasant), and ayahuasca taken in a sufficiently protected environment but I’m tired of throwing money and time at them.
Of all these, I would choose psychedelics and would not hesitate to throw money at it if I had it. Find a program that enables you to micro-dose for the rest of your life. I think if you are in the U.S.A you have a better chance of finding this kind of therapy. You have nothing to lose. I have witnessed the positive effects it has on people like you, like me and most of us here who are weary of life.
As for the 'things will get better' phrase' I guess the days you do not feel suicidal are an indication of that. Going from -10 to 0 is proof of this. One may never reach +10 and it is one's choice whether or not they can accept and live with that. I find the relief at hovering at 0 as opposed to -10, can in its own way lure me into continuing on.
Growing old is cruel and in a way unnatural, in my view. I think perhaps we have not evolved enough yet to cope with living past a certain age. People marvel at those who live into their 90's. I know few people who are happy to live this long with the mental and physical challenges it presents.
For those who endure well into old age, in spite of depression, hopelessness, despair, they deserve not a medal but regular and free access to psychedelics :)

Another rambling point:
Love ( mentioned in your mind map ) IS considered important by academics, religions, spiritualists, philosophers etc.. But, when/if the ability to Love is lost, damaged, irrevocably (and it is in so many people )should that really mean the end? Have we been conditioned to feel all is lost? Sometimes I reject the idea that Love is the answer. It carries with it a lot of pain; in other words carries a huge price tag, often not worth it in my view.
 

cyrano

SF Supporter
#10
Love ( mentioned in your mind map ) IS considered important by academics, religions, spiritualists, philosophers etc.. But, when/if the ability to Love is lost, damaged, irrevocably (and it is in so many people )should that really mean the end? Have we been conditioned to feel all is lost? Sometimes I reject the idea that Love is the answer. It carries with it a lot of pain; in other words carries a huge price tag, often not worth it in my view.
Hi Wary, I appreciate your thoughts. I agree that love is and has been a reason for many to keep on keeping on and I added it for that reason. I tend to be a little (too) encyclopedic. No, I am quite prepared to live out my three score and ten (wait, I'm already 70!) my sentence with no love.

And while I didn't quote the psychedelics part, it is definitely on my radar. I have a 50% deposit for a weekend ayahuasca ceremony in Florida at a time of my choice so long as it's within the next 6 months. My first inquiry regarded psilocybin but I know no one living in this miserable flyover state who's selling it, and it looked like cultivating the shrooms would be too technical or complex or something to continue pursuing.

Thx again!
 

cyrano

SF Supporter
#11
I drop in on this thread I started 1.65 years ago and it’s still on the first page. I’m glad because there have been some changes in my life…some ok, some not.

In July 2022, I didn’t have any sort of mental health “professional.” That person appeared in January of this year. She was a resident osteopath psychiatrist in the university medical empire and was assigned to me when I was denied entry into ketamine program. We bonded immediately through a shared proclivity for snark. Better, she latched on to what, on good days, did I want to do to improve my life? We worked on the wording of the question and after a couple of sessions, came up with:

What do I need (to do, and to happen outside my direct control) to find or create a life I consider worth staying alive to experience?

While we only had five sessions together, we used them as approaches to the question. However…she ghosted me in May, left that program to join a private clinic. I didn’t learn that from her but from a co-worker of hers.

But with a renewed desire to answer that question, I researched and found a nondenominational church that uses psilocybin as a sacrament. (Side note for non-USA residents; while drugs like sillycybin are generally illegal throughout the US, there’s an exception for religious organizations who use it as a sacrament.

I drove 400 miles to the church, joined it, and was assigned a counselor to guide me in the “medicine’s” use. They recommended microdosing, which was wise although I wanted to see the Eyes of Shiva (or at least the Eyes of Texas). First two doses evinced very small results…a little dizziness, a few colors seem to move and do other things.

it’s been two months now and I’m still upping the dose gradually.

well, company’s here. I’ll finish this later.
 
#12
I'm definitely curious to know about your microdosing the psilocybin. I microdose THC (it's legal here) and this is the ONLY substance I have ever found that alleviates the depression. I've taken dozens of meds and done TMS.

Honestly I'm stunned that the substance that has helped me is pot. My husband has been smoking it in moderation for years recreationally, and I tried it a few times to get high, but noticed that even if I didn't take enough to get high it totally blocked the depression. I take 2-4mg.

I am now off all my pharmaceutical meds except one, and plan to discontinue that as well because it never did anything for me. Therapy worked far more for me. And recently the ancient philosophy of Stoicism (which is not what it sounds like because the modern word has taken on a different meaning). Stoicism is similar to Buddhism in many ways and both are helping me.
 
#13
Really the biggest argument for being alive, in a way, is that we ARE alive. Killing ourselves is work, and risky.

Anyway, Stoicism and THC between them have really helped me.
 
#14
By the way, I'm really sorry to hear your grandchildren wouldn't miss you??? That sounds odd. Maybe reach out to them, if you think they'd be open to that. They might just surprise you. People do.
 

Ziggy

Antiquitie's Friend
#15
What constitutes a life worth living? A life with meaning. Many people find meaning in religion, but many people find meaning outside of religion too, and, for me, this is the missing part of the 'mind map' diagram where I have to go if answers are to be found.
 

cyrano

SF Supporter
#16
Ok, company’s gone. Well, ceremony’s over and in the story, I still need to get home, 400 miles away. Now the church does do zoom ceremonies, but they can’t send the medicine to me by zoom…so I had to cross two state lines with a not insubstantial amount amount of said medicine…driving at the speed limit and no more. Obviously, i and my supply made it back.

From there, I’ve been gradually upping the dosage, twice a week. I’m about halfway to a full dose and my psychedelic experiences have been, not underwhelming but subtle…colors changing and swimming around, outlines on the wall of people dressed in old west garb once. On the last two doses, a new effect has been, um, erotic in its effect. Rather interesting for 71 years old.

My minister/guide said after the first experience that the medicine has subtle ways of showing us what we need. Well, this one wasn’t really subtle. Until that first experience, I was mostly letting my body accommodate to the medicine’s effect. Now, I’m ramping up the dosage, still safe, still not operating heavy machinery.

something to look forward to.

enough oversharing.
 

cyrano

SF Supporter
#17
Really the biggest argument for being alive, in a way, is that we ARE alive. Killing ourselves is work, and risky. [\QUOTE]

fatal to be sure but I feel confident that if I were to decide to go forward, it would be quick. And it’s never been a decision I’ve approached lightly. A lifetime of dreary sameness and ennui that I’ve proven to be unable to change (until, I hope, this experiment changes things, and me) indicated I would either just wish and wait for a “natural” death or, well, pull the proverbial trigger.
 

cyrano

SF Supporter
#18
What constitutes a life worth living? A life with meaning. Many people find meaning in religion, but many people find meaning outside of religion too, and, for me, this is the missing part of the 'mind map' diagram where I have to go if answers are to be found.
well, that may be your truth but it’s presumptuous to assume it’s universal. My mind map stated my truth as I’ve lived it, omitting things I’ve tried but didn’t work.
 

Ivy100

SF Supporter
#19
“You never know what the future might hold” is something a mental health professional, parent, spouse, or stranger on the internet might say to someone contemplating suicide. Perfectly good advice to a 20-year-old and in fact when I was 20ish, I took it. It didn’t work very well but I like to think I gave it a good try.

But 50 years later, the inescapable fact is that there’s not nearly so much future left. I’ve been low-energy depressed ever since 19; now, I’m too weak to do physical labor (or much of anything physical) and the recent cognitive tests I took tell me that I’m losing those skills anyway. The only thing that I enjoy in life any more is Mexican food and cheap margaritas and even those in moderation—too greasy, too acidic.

And if I were interested in making a better, happier rest of my life, I would like to think I’d be more energetic about seeking it—traveling the world to see what there is to see, making new friends, making better margaritas—but none of those things have any interest.

I simply don’t care if I live or die. There are fewer than five people who might have some emotion about my death; I suspect my wife and my “grandchildren” are not in that group. And that fact doesn’t bother me, so the old trope about what would they say about me at my funeral holds no power. I’ve already left permission for whoever might want to pay for a funeral to save their money.

(and as for cures or alleviations, I’ve tried 11 different depression meds, ketamine, TMS, and ECT; the latter may have played a role in my cognitive loss, or it may have just been decades of corrosive depression)
 

Ivy100

SF Supporter
#20
I understand just how you feel. For me the only thing that helps - if diversion is help - is to exercise. I'm going for a long walk now to think about something - anything - else.
 

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