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CBT? Escitalopram? Clinical ketamine?

foundlostsoul

Well-Known Member
#1
Hey, friends. I've stalled out in my recovery from suicidal depression. Or at least I'm not progressing as fast as I'd liked. In years past, I'd been on escitalopram without adverse side effects, but I found that it left me emotionally indifferent rather than give me the capacity to resolve my issues. I was capable of participating in the capitalist churn, but it was nothing more than detached survival. Since then, I've come out of multiple closets -- transfemme, non-binary (still exploring this), pansexual (always been out as this but people assume shit like you're cishet if you match that model in their minds), demisexual, polyamorous. I've also done a ton of trauma work and have accepted that I am a victim of multiple childhood traumas which I am finally addressing head-on. (I won't enumerate them here; I'm trying not to be defined by my trauma, but I am open about it and will mention it if it's relavent and I do so later down in this post.)

So I'm looking at new treatment modalities. Here are my thoughts, but I'd like to know people's thoughts on, well, on my thoughts. Does this seem like this plan will be reasonable effective? Is there anything to be concerned about?

I want to start cognitive behavioral therapy. Here's my thinking around that: despite no longer seeming to actively hate myself or think I deserve suffering, I do find my thought patterns seem to interfere with my ability to self care, namely "there's no point" regarding fundamental self-care, regarding making major life changes, and regarding accepting the willingness and capacity of people who clearly care about me to show up for me in meaningful ways. Basically, I feel like it's too late and too challenging to change my life for the better. Rationally and analytically, I know this is bullshit, but being emotional is endemic to the species. I think so much of my life has been guided growing up a little girl who learned certain fear-based behaviors and patterns in order to literally survive. I hope that CBT can help me change some of those thought patterns that.

I also am thinking of going back on escitalopram, aka lexapro. I think this time will be different because I've accepted so much about myself. Last time I took escitalopram, it did somewhat relieve the burden of my depression but also prevented me from caring enough about myself to try to resolve them. I'm hoping now that I am hiding less from myself, and the relief from depression that escitalopram provides will give me the head space and spoons to actually do something about my challenges rather than continue to hide from them.

Lastly, I want to try clinical ketamine. I've heard it can be really freeing and is effective at reducing the severity and frequency of depressive episodes.

I do want to be clear about one thing. Among the things I've accepted about myself is the fact that I knew as early as age 10 that I was a girl (or a woman, since I'm now a grown-ass adult) despite the world's presumptions based on my anatomy. The early exploration of my true gender at age 10 and my openness at least one boy my age about that exploration led to traumatic events that in turn led me to make an attempt on my own life at that age. I feel weirdly defensive and insecure in my transness, but the longer I live as myself, the longer I associate "boymoding" with fear and survival rather than any authentic expression of self. Like, I'm still a somewhat butch queer woman -- I like my circular saw as much as I like my sewing machine, and shorts and camis almost always feel happier than dresses -- but I'm still a woman.

What do you all think, I guess?
 

LumberJack

Huggy Bear 🐻
#2
I have made use of all of the above. One thing about ketamine is that it’s approved only for treatment resistant depression (and a few other things). This is all heavily controlled, and insurance doesn’t cover ketamine because it’s used off label for depression.

It’s also very expensive. Most clinics will only offer ketamine if you sign up for a six month or so course of treatment for $6-10k. So we’re talking about $1k/month at least. I can’t afford that, but by asking around I found a psychiatrist that would charge a few hundred per visit.

My point is that ketamine is kind of a Hail Mary treatment for TRD, and not something you can just try as easily as you can get more conventional meds. YMMV, because I am guessing it’s a state level regulated treatment.

If I could start over with the knowledge I have now, I would have started with CBT and exercise. Both of these have better empirical evidence that they reduce depression than the traditional SSRIs do.

CBT takes a lot of up front and effort, but it gets easier once you have the foundational skills that build from there. I found it helpful for my anxiety and panic disorder more than depression. This being said, it can be helpful with or without therapy and/or medication.
Drinking alcohol is a terrible idea if you’re depressed. It makes any antidepressants completely ineffective. It also exacerbates symptoms and causes weight gain, etc.

Different meds work for different people, so it’s a trial and error process to find what works for you. I had try over a dozen permutations of drug mixes before I was able to get my depression to moderate levels, down from severe.

So I hope you find a path that is easier than mine, and also that you stick with it if the first thing, or even the 20th, doesn’t work out.
 

foundlostsoul

Well-Known Member
#4
Hey, @LumberJack. Thank you for your reply ❤️ I've been in therapy for depression on and off for over 22 years -- I put myself in therapy when I was 17, but maybe 16. My current therapist, who is easily the best therapist I've seen in all that time, recommended I look into ketamine.

I rarely drink alcohol, and when I do, it's usually just one drink.

I have a ton of anxiety and panic that go along with my depression. It's all kind of a toxic sludge in a cauldron of childhood trauma. That being said, as I understand CBT, it's designed to help manage cognitive distortions, and I have several of those that feed into my depression.

Exercise is really hard for me to stick with, but I do find it generally helps.

Your thoughts are really helpful. I think it confirms the path I'm going on, or at least doesn't include any red flags.

BTW, I updated my location in my profile.
 

LumberJack

Huggy Bear 🐻
#5
I see. I have to apologize for assuming that you hadn’t been in a lot of therapy. If a professional is suggesting you look into it, I would 100% defer to their judgement. I had the perception that maybe you had heard about ketamine more informally.

Given that I have used it for suicidal levels of depression, I have to say it worked for me. But the hoops that are required to jump through are such a pain that I would have given up if I hadn’t realized that it was an actual life or death situation.
 

foundlostsoul

Well-Known Member
#6
No worries all @LumberJack, and no need to apologize. I had initially heard of ketamine treatment more informally, but I do like to do my research.

I have had powerful suicidal ideation as part of overwhelming depressive episodes many times without making an attempt for decades now, so I doubt I'm going to, especially since they seem to be fewer and further between. Even if it's not a literal matter of life and death for me, I do deserve better, and I see no reason to wait when ketamine seems like it could work now.

I'm glad it seems like it's worked for you, and I'm hoping to join you in that *hug
 
#9
I'd like to double check to make sure practical advice is ok. It sounds like in asking for people's thoughts, advice would presumably be an acceptable part of that, but your safety plan indicates that practical advice often makes things worse for you.
 

foundlostsoul

Well-Known Member
#10
Thank you so much for checking my safety plan May ❤️ Yes, in this case, I'm asking for practical advice, so please do share. I need to update that to say unsolicited advice.
 
#11
You're welcome :)

CBT might be worth a try. You might also get some benefit from a book about CBT. This is one of the most often recommended CBT books for depression:

Mind Over Mood, Second Edition: Change How You Feel by Changing the Way You Think
Dennis Greenberger, Christine A. Padesky

I think there are other books that might be good too though.

I agree with what Lumberjack said initially about ketamine. It's a very expensive and (unless something has changed recently) still very much an experimental treatment. I wouldn't rule out trying ketamine, but imho, it's something to try only when all other options are exhausted (ECT also fits into this category).

A number of SF members have posted about trying or wanting to try ketamine. None of the members who tried it reported long term benefits. I think at least one reported feeling worse afterwards.

Imho, some self-treatment methods, acupuncture, Chinese herbal medicine, and maybe EMDR might be good next steps.

https://www.suicideforum.com/community/threads/treating-depression-conventional-treatments.166814/

https://www.suicideforum.com/commun...-worlds-second-largest-medical-system.166815/

https://www.suicideforum.com/community/threads/self-treatment-and-miscellaneous.166817/

Have you been on other drugs than escitalopram?
 

foundlostsoul

Well-Known Member
#12
Thanks for your reply May ❤️ I've actually already done EMDR. I'm open to doing it again, but I think EMDR is one of the things that opened me up to my trauma.

I have tried several drugs other than escitalopram, and either they worsened my mental state or cause intolerable side effects.

It does seem like the consensus here is on CBT. Since that's what I was planning on doing next anyway, well, I think I will continue as planned to pursue that course of action.
 

LumberJack

Huggy Bear 🐻
#13
I just thought I would check in with some more experience with ketamine. First off, I feel a little hesitant to talk about it, because it’s controlled and some street drug users have been getting ketamine for recreational use. This is usually a Bad Thing, because if you get illicit drugs, you have no idea how pure it is and what you are getting.

I would only use this if I got it from a pharmacist after being prescribed by a psychiatrist. It is dangerous for some people and it will take an MD to determine if it is safe for you.
Okay end soapbox.

I have gotten good results with SI. Additional surprise benefits are:
  • Clearer thoughts, as in less noise and tangential thinking
  • Short term memory is better
  • Less chronic pain
  • Decrease in severity of PTSD symptoms, especially the vague sense of fear/hyperarousal that is usually in my emotional background

Cons:
  • Immediate effects are the opposite of the benefits
  • Vertigo for 1-2 hours after taking it
  • Dissociation is a matter of taste, but I don’t like it at all, unless I am highly relaxed at the time
  • Doesn’t last long term. I am hoping, though that I will be able to do the SI moderation without it after getting enough experience with not being suicidal. Same principle as training wheels- when I learn how to balance the assistance can be removed.
Altogether, I will tolerate quite a bit of side effects just to keep my SI at bay. It bothers me to be suicidal, because I really don’t want to, but I have all these impulses telling me otherwise, and they get loudest at the worst possible times. Managing the impulses does much to mitigate my depression.
 

Aurelia

🔥 A Fire Inside 🔥
SF Supporter
#14
The only information I can really offer is that escitalopram made me feel incredibly restless, but it sounds like you didn't have the same problem. So if you have a plan in place, I would say it's worth trying. Also, I've heard good things about ketamine treatment.
 

Innocent Forever

🐒🥜🍌
Staff Alumni
SF Supporter
#17
I absolutely loved reading this. Makes so much sense.
I'm not sure if both medication and keyamine go together. As in it may be better to try one or the other first. Re ketamine - it's something I've heard mixed reviews about. I've never heard negative about it. People who've said it made a massive difference and those who said it didn't. From what I've heard there is a time during ketamine when one may intensely struggle so make sure you've support set up if you go ahead with it.
 

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