death penalty

Discussion in 'Soap Box' started by suicide_ideation, May 19, 2007.

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  1. What is everyone's thought on the death penalty?

    I'm asking this 'cause I just watched an Iraqi women getting kicked around until she died, just because she supposedly converted to her lover's religion, which they're not even sure of. I guess marrying someone outside your own religion is a crime in that region.


    The death penalty has a bad history, in the US, not less than 100 years ago, children and thieves were put to death.

    All methods imagineable were used throughout time and place to execute people for all kinds of crimes. Including torture.

    -The cost to execute someone in the US is higher than to keep the person in jail.
    -Poors are more likely to get it.
    -Blacks are more likely to get it.
    -Innocents are getting exonerated with the advent of DNA.
    -I don't know of any cases of innocents put to death, at least in the US, but I suspect that might of had happened.

    These are reasons for capitalists to rethink of the death penalty.

    Well, not the poor or black part, as if they care, I mean the money part.

    I think life without parole is an excellent alternative to the death penalty.

    There is a man in Lousiana on death row, as of 2007, for rape. Never killed anyone.
    Last edited: May 19, 2007
  2. I also have a problem with selfish Capitalists/Christians ''law and order'' mentality. Lazies and parasites slipping off the ''civilized line'', and not being performant societal robots, are punished, and not rehabilitated. Unless it's the capitalist son. So instead of addressing social injustices, we inforce our security measures and give bigger jail sentences.

    Don't find that approach very humanistic.

    It's easy for me to look at this from a distance, detached from the situation and analyze.

    I have so much compassion for the victims. And I think the criminals should pay.

    The DP is a weird issue, it's like i'm circling around the middle line. Can't make up my mind. Tho' I'm against it. I think.
    Last edited: May 19, 2007
  3. jcat

    jcat Staff Alumni

    when our dear president bush was gov.of texas, i read an article in rolling stone about the death penalty in that state. someone actually got onthe stand and said they had lied during the trial and the man was executed.
    i personally feel that the death penalty is a bad thing. except in certain circumstances. depends on the situation...
    child molesters and rapists i feel should be locked up in there own prisons. murderers in theirs. drug addicts should get treatment. but these are just my personal feelings. it really depends on the case.
  4. Freddy

    Freddy Guest

    Legal systems tend to have flaws in them. Its not 100% perfect. There for I'm against it. If you look at the number of people in jail that were found out to be innocent after the use of DNA testing its awful. I would hate to be someone who was at the wrong place at the wrong time and be found guilty of a crime he didnt commit. It could happen to anyone. Including yourself.
    Last edited: May 19, 2007
  5. SeemsPerfect

    SeemsPerfect Guest

    Whereas I'm very liberal in most respects, I'm extremely conservative in my views of crime and punishment. I feel the death penalty today doesn't deter anyone b/c your likelihood of receiving it is next to zero AND even if you do it'll take 10+ years for it to be carried out. So, not only do I agree w/ the death penalty but I feel strongly that it should be expanded.

    I already don't trust the judicial system to apply the death penalty fairly b/c, historically, it has NOT been applied fairly. Between issues of race and class/economics it's already screwed up on the small scale it's handed out today. If expanded I'm sure it'd be worse.

    In a perfect world, I'd like to see child molestors, rapists, serial killers, and murderers (but NOT those convicted of manslaughter, gross criminal negligence, etc.) be handed the death penalty automatically. Would love to see it carried out within 12 months of the final appeal. Two appeals -- 3 years total for both appeals to be heard.

    Again, that's in my own little "perfect" world. I don't expect to ever see such a thing happen b/c of the logistics of it AND the opposition against it. Besides, someone in charge would inevitably get too far RIGHT or too far LEFT and screw it all up somewhere along the line.

    I just watched an Iraqi women getting kicked around until she died, just because she supposedly converted to her lover's religion, which they're not even sure of. I guess marrying someone outside your own religion is a crime in that region. - suicide_ideation

    I've seen the video of that "honor" killing and it sickens me. In the Middle East, as in other regions, women are practically relegated to being owned by their family until they marry and become owned by their husband. Some places are more strict than others, but marrying outside your religion is strictly forbidden in most areas. In some areas of Iraq and Afghanistan a woman cannot even speak to a man who isn't a member of her family. Even that could result in an "honor" killing, which was the case with the Kurdish woman in that video. God bless her. I've seen a few of these videos and it doesn't get any easier to watch. :sad:
    Last edited: May 19, 2007
  6. SeemsPerfect

    SeemsPerfect Guest

    By the way...
    I really respect the people on these boards. The things I'm reading actually make a lot of sense. I may not agree w/ everything, and vice-versa, but I understand where you're coming from.
  7. ~Nobody~

    ~Nobody~ Well-Known Member

    I don't agree with the death penalty.

    It doesn't even deter people from committing crimes, so what on earth is the point? It's inhumane, expensive, and ineffective. There's no room for error - if you kill someone then they are dead, even if they are later proven innocent. The legal system can never be perfect and for that reason we should not be killing people.

    There's also the general feeling to the whole thing, for me. I actually don't believe that two wrongs make a right. I don't believe that killing someone because they killed someone else fixes anything. You've just ended up with two people murdered rather than one.

    Another point to mention is that lots of people never appeal, they want to be executed... isn't that just state-sanctioned suicide? And the number of people who end up on death row who should obviously be on a psychiatric ward instead... it's mind boggling.

    I believe that some people really can change. Even someone who has killed somebody. I think the penal system should really be about rehabilitation rather than punishment. If you want to punish people then fine thm, give them community service, whatever, but don't just lock them away and then release them later having altered nothing. Some people are genuinely too dangerous to be at large, and those people should be locked away somewhere, but that's different to locking someone up for 15 years for credit card fraud.

    I am rambling now, so I'm going to stop. Just have it known that I am against the death penalty (which we don't have in the UK anyway) and I think our legal system is bollocks in general. :rolleyes:

    One thing I would like to ask, suicide_ideation, is why you think that maybe murderers should be on death row but rapists definitely shouldn't be?
  8. Darken

    Darken Well-Known Member

    This was mostly caused by their religious beliefs. Kind of like how they hang all homosexuals in some places. People treat me like im close minded or a bigot when I say things like this but what I say is mostly true I think. I guess im a bad person for being intolerant to violence and sexism, and any thing that may cause it.

    My opinion on the death penalty is very similar to nobodies.
  9. hammockmonkey

    hammockmonkey Well-Known Member

    The "corrections" system in the US is based on the idea of reforming people, not punishing them for their crimes. But we know that's really not true anymore. I don't support the death penalty in most cases. Reasons? Human error and racism. A black man is far more likely to get the death penalty for killing a white person (especially a woman) then vice versa. There are many reasons someone would kill, not all of them deserve the death penalty.

    In states like Texas I've heard of stories were tax attorneys are representing the accussed. Attorneys sleeping through the trial. That is a huge deal because in order to make a good appeal you need to be awake to make your objections. These objections are all appealable, because they are questions of law and not facts. Appeals courts hear questions of laws. You can only object during the trial, you cannot read the transcript and object to something in it. In a very few cases you can but gross misconduct has to be aparent.

    Serial killers and rapists are the only people I think should get the death penalty. Serial killers are a danger both to other prisoners and prison guards. Most states have automatic appeals, so ther prisoner does not have a say the attorneys file and the appeals are heard.

    Serial rapists because whenever they are released they will probably rape again. NY tried to get it so when rapists were released they could immediately be placed back into prison because they were a continuing danger to society. The State lost the case because in prison there is no attempt to rehabilitate them.

    This has nothing to do with the death penalty but just pissed me off. A man was convicted for sexually abusing his neices for years had his sentence reduced from 15 years to 3 years because: "He was a veteran and held the same job for 15 years." Let that soak in.

  10. That's easy. Cuz murder is worse than rape. Therefore, for raping someone, nobody should get murdered/executed. It's an unfair punishment. You kill you die. Seems fair. I mean, we're just asking not to kill anyone. You don't wanna die, don't kill.

    I think the US should abolish the death penalty. Because of all the reasons I cited. But if these reasons didn't exist. Would I favor the death penalty, only in very rare circumstances. And even in those cases I'm not sure.

    As much as I have compassion for people, and for those on death row, I get very enraged when I see someone getting beaten on TV. And I once saw someone have his throat cut on a video (online).

    If the person has a conscience, and you can feel sympathy, regardless of his crimes, I think my compassion would win over my rage.

    Bad things have happened to some very vicious serial killers in their childhood.

    And for other psychological motives, I also disapprove of the death penalty.

    What is the only possible formula where I'd approve of the death penalty, I don't even know, maybe some person without a conscience who kills his children for insurance money. But even here, is this person not ok in his mind? Should we feel sympathy for him. Are there any kinds of people we should not feel sympathy for?

    It's easy for us, collectively, who are not usually victims of violent crimes, to analyze, when we're detached from the situation. Let's see what the victims of violent crimes and the families of the murdered think. That's important.

    Now some will argue that they can't think straight, after such an incident.

    Middle East, it's a separate issue, for me. I think it's none of our business, that's how they live. They have their own tradition.

    They have less rapes and murders, no drug problems, no prostitution, no fiflth, thanks to their strict regime. They're maybe too strict. But you gotta be, to keep the fiflth out. And if collectively they choose to live this way, it's none of your business. American women get ejac___ by 60 men on their face. That's more frequent in the US, than women getting stoned in Iraq. They also have no divorces, while in the US everyone gets divorced. Marriage must be a plus. Just like u buy everything. Everyone is so superficial and materialistic. As stupid as I think religion is, it keeps the filth out. Who am I to comment on what's going on there. You want to propose them the American way?
  11. music_addict

    music_addict Well-Known Member

    i suport the death penalty in theory but not in reality. in theory its good because it gets rid of the vile cretins who have commited attrocities against their fellow human and deserve nothing less. Those people dont eserve a cushy life of three meals a day and a nice roof over their heads. Which I as a taxpayer have to pay to provide them.
    but in reality, the death penalty does not work. For one, the court system and judges ARE biased. Some people are sentenced to death who do not deserve, while others are given verylight sentences when they deserve to be executed. Also, i have no doubt that there have been, are, and will be people who are convicted and executed for a crime they did not commit. It really is quite sad how flawed and corrupt the judicial system is.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2007
  12. reborn1961

    reborn1961 Guest

    [QUOTEThere is a man in Lousiana on death row, as of 2007, for rape. Never killed anyone.[/QUOTE]

    I don't see a problem with that man being on death row. I am in favor of the death penalty. Most of the people that face that sentence are criminally insane for the most part and rehabilitation would be pointless and costly. Some times you have to have the back bone to stand up and say, enough, this person needs to pay for his/her crimes.
  13. Esmeralda

    Esmeralda Well-Known Member

    Ideation, you said:

    These are reasons for capitalists to rethink of the death penalty.

    Well, not the poor or black part, as if they care, I mean the money part.

    These gross generalizations are really starting to piss me off. I am a Capitalist, living in a capitalist country and I care about the poor, the minorities, everyone. I believe the death penalty is wrong as is abortion as is suicide because God gave us life and only He has the right to take it away. I used to believe in the death penalty, but I could not reconcile my religious beliefs on abortion with my pro-death penalty stance; so I changed my mind and am now pro-life across the board.
  14. ~Nobody~

    ~Nobody~ Well-Known Member

    It's possible to rehabilitate the criminally insane, the insane, and a lot of criminals. I completely reject that statement. Maybe killing someone isn't what takes backbone, maybe it's persevering with someone and doing what is morally right. The whole foundation of the death penalty is ridiculous. You killed someone - That is bad - So now I'm gonna kill someone too - That'll make everything okay. It doesn't make anything okay, it makes everything twice as worse.

    Has it occured to you though, that some of those people are actually innocent? No law system is infallible, and if you use the death penalty there is absolutely no room for error.

    Also, perhaps some of those 'pathetic excuses for humans' were in extenuating circumstances. If you found out that a guy from your work had sexually abused your young daughter pretty much all her life... wouldn't you get a little angry? Would that make you a 'pathetic excuse for a human'? I'm not justifying murder, but all I'm saying is that you can't compare a murder like that with a murder committed to get at some cash so you can buy a new car. There's a whole scale here, things aren't just black and white.

    If you think you shouldn't be paying for people to be in prison, shouldn't we just kill everyone we'd otherwise lock up? Surely it makes more sense to try to rehabilitate people rather than just shutting them up and spending huge amounts of money on them. Which is precisely what I'm arguing for here.

    Why is murder worse than rape? I'm genuinely interested to hear your viewpoint. One may argue that if you are murdered then you won't have to live with the pain of it afterwards, whereas if you are raped then that haunts you forever. Another thing perhaps worth considering is the fact that murder can be committed in a heated moment (see above for an example), and in fact most murders are not premeditated. Most rapes on the other hand, are planned. Doesn't that make it a worse crime?

    The other thing is, you say "You kill, you die. Seems fair." So what about the person who flips the switch for the electric chair, pushes the plunger of a lethal injection, signs a man's death warrent? They should die too. Seems fair, right?

    By the way, you give a very interesting take on religion in your post as well. It made me stop and think. Thanks :smile:.

    What a fantastic post! :thumbup: You said a lot of what I was thinking but couldn't word so coherently. The last point you made was especially poignant - and illustrates the point perfectly. It makes me sick to hear stories like that, unfortunately they are all too common.
  15. Jolanta

    Jolanta Member & Antiquitie's Friend Staff Alumni

    When I was younger, and a little more extreme in my views, I believed in the death penalty. Then, one day, I asked myself if I would want to be the person to hit the switch or inject the drugs that actually killed the person who was sentenced to die. After much self talk and internal debate, I chickened out. I don't believe I could execute someone. "Thou shalt not kill." Some would argue that this commandment does not apply to punishing criminals. I do not pretend to know. I do know that we all have to account to God for the things we do while we are here on the earth.
    Anyway, what would happen if the person on death row really didn't commit the crime? People make mistakes. People lie and get away with it. Guilty people get away and innocent people go to prison and innocent people are executed. I wouldn't want that blood on my hands. Lady McBeth wouldn't feel more guilty than I.
    If you are concerned about their upkeep, make the criminals work for their living. Remember chain gangs?
  16. theleastofthese

    theleastofthese SF Friend Staff Alumni

    Imho, there's something illogical about killing people to punish them for killing people... just my opinion...
  17. Jolanta

    Jolanta Member & Antiquitie's Friend Staff Alumni

    Yes, least, I suppose that would be like telling a child, "How many times (pow!) do I have to tell you (pow!) not to hit people (pow!)?:huh:
  18. Syd

    Syd Guest

    Last edited: May 19, 2007
  19. To Nobody

    Being killed is worse than being raped. As insane as rape is, being murdered is just worse. I don't know what to say more.

    And of course I don't support the death penalty for second-degree murder (if it's not premeditated, nor does any US state (I think).
  20. Moderators get a delete option :-D
    Last edited: May 20, 2007
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