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Ideas & Opinions Is it wrong to say "no" and/or is there a better way to ask "why"?

LumberJack

Huggy Bear 🐻
SF Supporter
#1
Following a meeting last night, an individual asked me to help her do something that I didn't think was worth doing. So I asked why, and the response is "we just have to." I said that was not a good reason for me, and I also have a good reason to refrain from doing that (the task was to reset the chairs after a meeting, but I know for a fact that another meeting on Thursday rearranges the chairs anyway - making it unnecessary to reset the rows). So I didn't join in. I don't intend to be ordered around by people just because they expect unquestioning obedience - even if they expect this because they offer unquestioning obedience to a third person.

Later she said that she had gotten bitched out before, which in my opinion is even worse. I will not do anything that is motivated by someone else's fear, unless they have compelling leverage over me. I had also gotten bitched out by someone, but later found out that the person asserting authority over me in that past encounter didn't understand the situation. I had then decided that I don't mind the disapproval of people who are going to be unhappy no matter what. With this in mind, I asked my friend for names and she walked away. That's fine. I don't need everyone to be happy with me, which is good because it's logically impossible to please everyone.

If she wants to run around in fear of the wrath of someone whose authority is entirely self-appointed, that's her choice. It's also my choice to refrain from compliance. I didn't feel good about resisting the preferences of someone who I do like, and respect, and wish to support in her own efforts at self-healing. But sometimes it's more important to be kind than to be comfortable. In this case it would have been more comfortable to "go along to get along" by just helping out in order to be nice. The kind thing to do was examine why we "just have to" do anything.

If there was a meaningful reason for doing the thing she felt compelled to do, I would have enthusiastically helped, just to be helpful and feel good about that later. However, in simply asking "why" and then rejecting an answer that I found unpersuasive, I at least created an opportunity for her to consider if getting stressed out over making something happen just to please someone else's ego is particularly beneficial. I did not say this out loud, but it was going through my head at the time.

Upon examination, I think it was a healthy conflict. If nothing else I got practice with resisting outside pressure in a way that doesn't involve aggression, as in I didn't tell her she should change her behavior, but only that I must have a reason if I am to join in that behavior. I could be wrong though, and frequently am. So I wonder what anyone else thinks?
 
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seabird

meandering home
SF Supporter
#2
I don't intend to be ordered around by people just because they expect unquestioning obedience - even if they expect this because they offer unquestioning obedience to a third person.
This is one of my characteristics. It's not wrong to be yourself, (or in my case, me). I've found out I can't not be me even when others have conniptions &/or get abusive, tell me I am wrong, etc.

You've come to the same kind of conclusion as I'd do. A person can mind their own emotional regulations, have respect for others and so no. Other people may not agree with it but their reactions are their responsibility.
 

LumberJack

Huggy Bear 🐻
SF Supporter
#3
This is one of my characteristics. It's not wrong to be yourself, (or in my case, me). I've found out I can't not be me even when others have conniptions &/or get abusive, tell me I am wrong, etc.
Well, this was a hard fought lesson that I've only come to arrive at recently. I put more detail in my thread under the My Story section, but in short I feel like I can finally at least get some distance from the trauma of what happened when I was in crisis. The way I can do that, though, is by standing up for myself as if I am allowed as much space as anyone else on this planet. My previous MO of just collapsing, submitting, and disappearing to avoid conflict has resulted in a long streak of harms to my net worth and my psyche.

In resolving to reclaim my right to just be, though, I'm having discomfort treating myself this way. I know it makes logical sense, but the habit is that if I just keep my head down, don't make waves, the bullies will focus on someone else. No more - I'm here to tell the bullies when they're full of shit, and when someone else is allowing themselves to be bullied, I can offer to help. Either way it is up to me or that other person to decide whether to comply. Until I feel competent in this skill, though, I am declining any request for me to do something I'm not doing, or stop doing something I am, unless there is a good reason.

If, for example, the reason is, "look - I have this gun," then I better snap to it. If the reason is that the requestor decides whether I get a future paycheck or not, I am also obligated to comply. Beyond that, though, it's up to my conscience and I am trying to prove to my conscience that I'm going to protect myself going forward.
 

KM76710

Kangaroo Manager
SF Pro
SF Supporter
#4
I have never believed that it is wrong to say no to so much. The why is the better part. I would say yes if it is someone I know is not just behaving entitled like they are owed but is someone that we reciprocate and can expect fair turn back and forth. And you are right, does the task make sense to be doing at all. I would do for others I can depend on but just because someone wants, I would weigh the circumstances.
 

LumberJack

Huggy Bear 🐻
SF Supporter
#5
I would say yes if it is someone I know is not just behaving entitled like they are owed but is someone that we reciprocate and can expect fair turn back and forth.
What if it was someone who you genuinely like, and don't believe they are acting entitled so much as acting out an ingrained script that is based on fear of the past rather than reality?
That's what I'm torn over. For my credit I will say that I kept quiet my initial response of, "I'm not going to join you in your neurosis." At the same time I felt it would be a betrayal of my own needs and wants to go ahead and join in what I felt was unrealistic and thereby indirectly reinforce the fearful narrative she brought with her.

Either way, I am not agonizing over this. I was, but I have stopped. My decision is that I will offer an apology and check if she would like to discuss. Hell, maybe I'm making the whole damn thing up and she didn't see it that way at all. It would not be the first time if that were the case. If she is angry and staying that way, then I will use that data for informing future decisions, and of course do what I can to mend the relationship.
 

Gard

Well-Known Member
#6
Following a meeting last night, an individual asked me to help her do something that I didn't think was worth doing. So I asked why, and the response is "we just have to." I said that was not a good reason for me, and I also have a good reason to refrain from doing that (the task was to reset the chairs after a meeting, but I know for a fact that another meeting on Thursday rearranges the chairs anyway - making it unnecessary to reset the rows). So I didn't join in. I don't intend to be ordered around by people just because they expect unquestioning obedience - even if they expect this because they offer unquestioning obedience to a third person.

Later she said that she had gotten bitched out before, which in my opinion is even worse. I will not do anything that is motivated by someone else's fear, unless they have compelling leverage over me. I had also gotten bitched out by someone, but later found out that the person asserting authority over me in that past encounter didn't understand the situation. I had then decided that I don't mind the disapproval of people who are going to be unhappy no matter what. With this in mind, I asked my friend for names and she walked away. That's fine. I don't need everyone to be happy with me, which is good because it's logically impossible to please everyone.

If she wants to run around in fear of the wrath of someone whose authority is entirely self-appointed, that's her choice. It's also my choice to refrain from compliance. I didn't feel good about resisting the preferences of someone who I do like, and respect, and wish to support in her own efforts at self-healing. But sometimes it's more important to be kind than to be comfortable. In this case it would have been more comfortable to "go along to get along" by just helping out in order to be nice. The kind thing to do was examine why we "just have to" do anything.

If there was a meaningful reason for doing the thing she felt compelled to do, I would have enthusiastically helped, just to be helpful and feel good about that later. However, in simply asking "why" and then rejecting an answer that I found unpersuasive, I at least created an opportunity for her to consider if getting stressed out over making something happen just to please someone else's ego is particularly beneficial. I did not say this out loud, but it was going through my head at the time.

Upon examination, I think it was a healthy conflict. If nothing else I got practice with resisting outside pressure in a way that doesn't involve aggression, as in I didn't tell her she should change her behavior, but only that I must have a reason if I am to join in that behavior. I could be wrong though, and frequently am. So I wonder what anyone else thinks?
If they don't mind doing what I ask, then I don't mind doing what they ask.
 

seabird

meandering home
SF Supporter
#7
It's okay to notice ('smell') their fear or anger &/or they may be running on autopilot. If you aren't really close to them, it might be best to keep the perception to yourself rather than talk about it unless they bring it up. I'm not sure but even offering an apology might be kind of shining a spotlight on it and initiate reactions.
I guess it's part of maintaining our own boundaries, to mindfully calm and support one's self while choosing not to participate in less appealing human group behaviours.
 

LumberJack

Huggy Bear 🐻
SF Supporter
#8
It's okay to notice ('smell') their fear or anger &/or they may be running on autopilot. If you aren't really close to them, it might be best to keep the perception to yourself rather than talk about it unless they bring it up. I'm not sure but even offering an apology might be kind of shining a spotlight on it and initiate reactions.
I guess it's part of maintaining our own boundaries, to mindfully calm and support one's self while choosing not to participate in less appealing human group behaviours.
We’re not too close, but we know each other from the support group. As such we have opened up to each other in ways that would not happen outside of a mutual commitment to confidentiality.
 
#9
Following a meeting last night, an individual asked me to help her do something that I didn't think was worth doing. So I asked why, and the response is "we just have to." I said that was not a good reason for me, and I also have a good reason to refrain from doing that (the task was to reset the chairs after a meeting, but I know for a fact that another meeting on Thursday rearranges the chairs anyway - making it unnecessary to reset the rows). So I didn't join in. I don't intend to be ordered around by people just because they expect unquestioning obedience - even if they expect this because they offer unquestioning obedience to a third person.

Later she said that she had gotten bitched out before, which in my opinion is even worse. I will not do anything that is motivated by someone else's fear, unless they have compelling leverage over me. I had also gotten bitched out by someone, but later found out that the person asserting authority over me in that past encounter didn't understand the situation. I had then decided that I don't mind the disapproval of people who are going to be unhappy no matter what. With this in mind, I asked my friend for names and she walked away. That's fine. I don't need everyone to be happy with me, which is good because it's logically impossible to please everyone.

If she wants to run around in fear of the wrath of someone whose authority is entirely self-appointed, that's her choice. It's also my choice to refrain from compliance. I didn't feel good about resisting the preferences of someone who I do like, and respect, and wish to support in her own efforts at self-healing. But sometimes it's more important to be kind than to be comfortable. In this case it would have been more comfortable to "go along to get along" by just helping out in order to be nice. The kind thing to do was examine why we "just have to" do anything.

If there was a meaningful reason for doing the thing she felt compelled to do, I would have enthusiastically helped, just to be helpful and feel good about that later. However, in simply asking "why" and then rejecting an answer that I found unpersuasive, I at least created an opportunity for her to consider if getting stressed out over making something happen just to please someone else's ego is particularly beneficial. I did not say this out loud, but it was going through my head at the time.

Upon examination, I think it was a healthy conflict. If nothing else I got practice with resisting outside pressure in a way that doesn't involve aggression, as in I didn't tell her she should change her behavior, but only that I must have a reason if I am to join in that behavior. I could be wrong though, and frequently am. So I wonder what anyone else thinks?
I am guilty of neglecting to say no. It's a big reason of mīn for why I want to kill myself, *just in and of itself*, and it overlaps heavily wiþ almost every oþer reason I þink about.
 
#10
I am practically þis woman outright; too late in life have I been to start saying no, and it's only a start; I'm still very much a "yes"-man and at þis rate won't become a proper human in time before I disperse to þe Big Waiting Room.

Even so, it is inspiring to read your dree and stand. Maybe in anoþer attempt at þis lifetime, I can þink of þis or someþing similar, and make it a way of living early on
 

LumberJack

Huggy Bear 🐻
SF Supporter
#12
It's okay to notice ('smell') their fear or anger &/or they may be running on autopilot. If you aren't really close to them, it might be best to keep the perception to yourself rather than talk about it unless they bring it up. I'm not sure but even offering an apology might be kind of shining a spotlight on it and initiate reactions.
I guess it's part of maintaining our own boundaries, to mindfully calm and support one's self while choosing not to participate in less appealing human group behaviours.
I ultimately did send a text. There's a phone list (entirely optional tho- you have to go to the document and add your own phone # in) for the group and I texted the number for her name. I pretty much said that I'm sorry if I did the wrong thing and I'm open to talk if she is, but no pressure. Got a reply back that completely missed my point, but that does tell me where I stand. This speaks to a larger problem I have of being misunderstood. It seems like there's a world of people, let's call them neurotypical - who all have this language of their own where what they say is not what they mean. I don't do that - I say exactly what I mean, but then when a neurotypical human receives my communication they read into it through the filter of what they would mean if saying the same words... oh well.
 

LumberJack

Huggy Bear 🐻
SF Supporter
#14
@seabird: it was good practice for me. I was vulnerable and stayed away from blaming her or making assumptions about her intentions or how she felt when I resisted her direction (I did not mention the resistance part, tho, lol!). Similar to boundary conversations, I only referenced my internal state based on observable facts with no adjectives and, “I heard” instead of “you said” for example. I know she wouldn’t attack me; she beats herself up mercilessly but not me so far and we have tangled once before. I think she just judges, silently lol.

re: communication misses, I am glad that I am not the only one. I’m frustrated that I didn’t get the chance to say that I was trying to show a way to at least consider saying no to the unnamed person who whined about it. However I think we cleared the air and how she feels about it going forward is none of my business. I have enough trouble managing my own feelings and I just can’t manage anyone else. It’s unhealthy and I don’t even have that kind of capacity.
 

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