Okay, so what I'm getting from this is that you have trouble expressing yourself through telehealth visits. Do you think that that might be because there seems to be more pressure to say something through that particular means of communication than there is in person? Because I know that, I, for one, hate awkward silences over phone, and it seems to work the same way with video conferences. I feel too much pressure to break the silence at times and end up saying things that either sound stupid (to me) or just things that I never really cared/intended to say. There doesn't seem to be enough time to just sit for a moment and gather one's thoughts before speaking or try to remember what exactly it is you wanted to talk about in the first place. This is just a guess based on my own experience, but I hate the phone for that reason more than I hate speaking to people in person. And this is coming from someone who has social anxiety. So it may sound odd in some ways because one is seemingly more "exposed" talking to someone face to face, but be that as it may, there is also the fact of what I just stated, plus the fact that it's just easier to read emotions, body language, etc. in person than over the phone, or even video conferences.
Is Therapy Useless?
- Thread starter Dark111
- Start date
I really love the 3 questions you at the end of the post! Speaking as a therapist, I go into the work with each person with a few assumptions: (1) they don't owe me any information, if I want them to be open and honest with me about what's going on I have to earn that trust; (2) there are no unique issues, but there are unique sets of circumstances - the person might experience anxiety, but what that means to them, and how we can work with it is specific to them; and (3) a diagnosis only serves the purpose of making insurance companies happy, it's irrelevant otherwise (most of the time, there are exceptions).
Also, regarding the "person not in the room" - from my perspective what matters about those other people is the impact that they had on the person I'm working with, not whatever is going on with them (spend so much time trying to get people to stop trying to understand other people!!!)
Also, regarding the "person not in the room" - from my perspective what matters about those other people is the impact that they had on the person I'm working with, not whatever is going on with them (spend so much time trying to get people to stop trying to understand other people!!!)
i kind of feel that mental healthcare has gone just so far and is presently waiting to go further. it may be the point being made here:
but i feel its really a step further - that mental healthcare is rooted in the cultures/societal norms that stem out of the dark ages or other ways of being from long ago that do not apply to present day situations.
i see religion as an early form of science (in all cases) and they do serve a fundamental need that must not be ignored, yet science is perceived as something separate when i believe it is actually refinements of thoughts that went before including and depending upon religious thought.
i donāt see science as breaking away from religion. and there should be an understanding that these two are actually dependent upon each other.
then, there is also the concept of revenge and punishment that i believe our collective societies cling to as the cure for our ills. it is that, that must be let go of. i donāt think any improvements can be made in these ways, yet at the same time, to suggest this could be twisted or misinterpreted into a belief that criminal deeds are to be blindly forgiven or excused. that is not the case.
i think the goal would be to phase out what our justice system stems from - punishment, correction, revenge, (which i believe do not really work) and phase in early learning of things many feel are taboo or immoral or just plain wrong or whatever.
what ever they are, they are facts of life and clearly pitfalls of life and things to be avoided and avoided best if learned about early in life. the therapist has to be that open minded in my opinion. and the therapist will eventually evolve additionally into teaching before many problems develop into illness and disorder.
i certainly do not think such a thing can happen over night or at this point in our histories, if there is even enough time to make changes before we annihilate ourselves all together.
i also think that much in therapy really does involve the patient actively participating in their own healing. i think sometimes doing that is a very difficult thing to do and ways to resolve this need to be developed. this too might be the point of the quote in bold.
i am not opposed to medication but i feel it should be a last resort. i believe (and iām open to this thought being shot down and or disproved - yet i believe iāve found) that meds do not treat the cause, the treat the symptom. once treatment with meds begins, without intensive non med therapy with a therapist, it diminishes treating the cause. eliminating the symptoms might be desirable in some/many cases, but i think resolving the issues that are causing them is more important. this may also be the point of the earlier quote.
yet i see and interpret this all through my own experience and belief system that likely differs greatly from otherās and may create potential obstructions to understanding and likewise interfere with moving things forward in therapy simply due to participants differences in belief systems. it may be that each person has a different take and those need to be considered in addition to types of illnesses and disorders and varying treatments.
iāve written my reply three times - all painfully long. sorry! Dark111, youāve prompted so much thought with this thread. i could go on for hours. i hope ive made a little sense in the above... who knows?
but i feel its really a step further - that mental healthcare is rooted in the cultures/societal norms that stem out of the dark ages or other ways of being from long ago that do not apply to present day situations.
i see religion as an early form of science (in all cases) and they do serve a fundamental need that must not be ignored, yet science is perceived as something separate when i believe it is actually refinements of thoughts that went before including and depending upon religious thought.
i donāt see science as breaking away from religion. and there should be an understanding that these two are actually dependent upon each other.
then, there is also the concept of revenge and punishment that i believe our collective societies cling to as the cure for our ills. it is that, that must be let go of. i donāt think any improvements can be made in these ways, yet at the same time, to suggest this could be twisted or misinterpreted into a belief that criminal deeds are to be blindly forgiven or excused. that is not the case.
i think the goal would be to phase out what our justice system stems from - punishment, correction, revenge, (which i believe do not really work) and phase in early learning of things many feel are taboo or immoral or just plain wrong or whatever.
what ever they are, they are facts of life and clearly pitfalls of life and things to be avoided and avoided best if learned about early in life. the therapist has to be that open minded in my opinion. and the therapist will eventually evolve additionally into teaching before many problems develop into illness and disorder.
i certainly do not think such a thing can happen over night or at this point in our histories, if there is even enough time to make changes before we annihilate ourselves all together.
i also think that much in therapy really does involve the patient actively participating in their own healing. i think sometimes doing that is a very difficult thing to do and ways to resolve this need to be developed. this too might be the point of the quote in bold.
i am not opposed to medication but i feel it should be a last resort. i believe (and iām open to this thought being shot down and or disproved - yet i believe iāve found) that meds do not treat the cause, the treat the symptom. once treatment with meds begins, without intensive non med therapy with a therapist, it diminishes treating the cause. eliminating the symptoms might be desirable in some/many cases, but i think resolving the issues that are causing them is more important. this may also be the point of the earlier quote.
yet i see and interpret this all through my own experience and belief system that likely differs greatly from otherās and may create potential obstructions to understanding and likewise interfere with moving things forward in therapy simply due to participants differences in belief systems. it may be that each person has a different take and those need to be considered in addition to types of illnesses and disorders and varying treatments.
iāve written my reply three times - all painfully long. sorry! Dark111, youāve prompted so much thought with this thread. i could go on for hours. i hope ive made a little sense in the above... who knows?
Thanks for your thought-provoking reply, etone.
Can you provide an example of some practice within mental health care today is still very old-world, or as you say, stemming from the "dark ages"?
Science has always been considered the antithesis of religion(anti-theist) but there are there are many different perspectives on this. The evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins goes as far as to say: "Not only is science corrosive to religion; religion is corrosive to science. It teaches people to be satisfied with trivial, supernatural non-explanations and blinds them to the wonderful real explanations that we have within our grasp. It teaches them to accept authority, revelation and faith instead of always insisting on evidence." I would be more inclined to agree with other thinkers such as Francis Collins who believe science and religion are not incompatible, but are complementary to one another and can co-exist.
The justice system is a whole other conversation, but I don't hear of too many therapists recommending punishment and revenge for their clients' misdeeds
Perhaps you can clarify your point here a little further?
No argument there. It's widely accepted within the medical profession that psychiatric drugs treat symptoms only. From Mental Health America:
"Thereās no cure for mental illness, but there are lots of effective treatments. People with mental illnesses can recover and live long and healthy lives.
It's precisely each individual experience that's of interest here. Thanks for taking the time to share yours, etone.
Can you provide an example of some practice within mental health care today is still very old-world, or as you say, stemming from the "dark ages"?
Science has always been considered the antithesis of religion(anti-theist) but there are there are many different perspectives on this. The evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins goes as far as to say: "Not only is science corrosive to religion; religion is corrosive to science. It teaches people to be satisfied with trivial, supernatural non-explanations and blinds them to the wonderful real explanations that we have within our grasp. It teaches them to accept authority, revelation and faith instead of always insisting on evidence." I would be more inclined to agree with other thinkers such as Francis Collins who believe science and religion are not incompatible, but are complementary to one another and can co-exist.
The justice system is a whole other conversation, but I don't hear of too many therapists recommending punishment and revenge for their clients' misdeeds
Perhaps you can clarify your point here a little further?
No argument there. It's widely accepted within the medical profession that psychiatric drugs treat symptoms only. From Mental Health America:
"Thereās no cure for mental illness, but there are lots of effective treatments. People with mental illnesses can recover and live long and healthy lives.
- Medications are not cures. Medications only treat symptoms, so if you stop taking them, your symptoms can return. Ask your health care provider how long you might expect to take medication.
- Every medicine has its benefits and its risks. Deciding to take medication is all about balancing possible benefits against possible side effects. Sometimes, it's hard to know how a medicine will affect you until you try it.
- Medications often help the most when they're part of an overall treatment program. Your plan may include psychotherapy, peer programs and rehabilitative services to help with problems that medication alone can't treat.
- It can take time to feel better. Some medications take a few weeks to work. And sometimes a medication's side effects may start before its benefits. You also may have to try more than one medication before you get the right fit, but many people find it's worth the wait."
It's precisely each individual experience that's of interest here. Thanks for taking the time to share yours, etone.
@Kiwi2016 I studied Communication in college/school. (not that you'd ever now it..
) And the thing they told you is that communication is (depending on which source you're using) well over 90% non-verbal. Just something to keep in mind!
) And the thing they told you is that communication is (depending on which source you're using) well over 90% non-verbal. Just something to keep in mind!
please donāt think that iām trying to back out of anything that i said but one of the great difficulties iāve had in my life is reading. it puts me to sleep, or if not that, after reading for an hour or so (and done so slowly) i realize that iāve not taken anything in and have to read it again. so many people talk about loving to read and how enjoyable and enlightening it is. i can only look upon them with envy. its torment to me. thus most of what i know i must have osmosed in. yes! i really do believe iāve acquired a lot of knowledge through osmosis. (something else went here that my ipad decided on its own to delete. iām hoping the continuity is not damaged too much here - i canāt recall what i said)
but, i think modern societies in the world revolve around - like i said before - revenge, punishment and something (maybe) that gets called correction. to me its all forms of revenge. yes there are those who have abundant compassion but still they are in a position to respond as influenced by a vengeful society.
i understand very well why one would want revenge and punishment, but the one guilty has only shown the world that the bad deed can be done. then the vengeful response only strengthens the hated act. yes, some may become afraid to do it again but fear to do does not reshape the brain in a positive way.
there may have been a time in our history that such bad deeds were seen as being necessary as a way of life - maybe needed for survival - but we do (all of us) have the brain capacity to rise above that behavior and that ability needs to be addressed and made to be the new way of life.
and in response to another recent thread posted by i do not remember whom about video games and violence, i do think it applies to this thread - i do believe that such a thing can be made to substitute for actual bad deeds and and āget it out of peopleās systems - a letting off of steam - and this should be explored as well. (it would have to be done carefully because i do think learning to be violent or more so could occur too).
as for mental healthcare, if it really is dark ages rooted as i perceive it to be, then even the most compassionate and well informed practitioner is still with a dark ages mindset. this is how i see it. because my own experience with the mental healthcare system in america has given me this impression. is this good cause for me to have my beliefs? i donāt know for sure. i think i would have to speak with a doctor or therapist who is not connected to my treatment to discuss my ideas to get a real take on the professionās views of what i am suggesting. (i do not think my own therapist or doctor would give me anything but a supportive answer - and thus would not be wholly honest)
but, i think modern societies in the world revolve around - like i said before - revenge, punishment and something (maybe) that gets called correction. to me its all forms of revenge. yes there are those who have abundant compassion but still they are in a position to respond as influenced by a vengeful society.
i understand very well why one would want revenge and punishment, but the one guilty has only shown the world that the bad deed can be done. then the vengeful response only strengthens the hated act. yes, some may become afraid to do it again but fear to do does not reshape the brain in a positive way.
there may have been a time in our history that such bad deeds were seen as being necessary as a way of life - maybe needed for survival - but we do (all of us) have the brain capacity to rise above that behavior and that ability needs to be addressed and made to be the new way of life.
and in response to another recent thread posted by i do not remember whom about video games and violence, i do think it applies to this thread - i do believe that such a thing can be made to substitute for actual bad deeds and and āget it out of peopleās systems - a letting off of steam - and this should be explored as well. (it would have to be done carefully because i do think learning to be violent or more so could occur too).
as for mental healthcare, if it really is dark ages rooted as i perceive it to be, then even the most compassionate and well informed practitioner is still with a dark ages mindset. this is how i see it. because my own experience with the mental healthcare system in america has given me this impression. is this good cause for me to have my beliefs? i donāt know for sure. i think i would have to speak with a doctor or therapist who is not connected to my treatment to discuss my ideas to get a real take on the professionās views of what i am suggesting. (i do not think my own therapist or doctor would give me anything but a supportive answer - and thus would not be wholly honest)
i would like to add one more thing - do they accept when you challenge them and their knowledge. i say this specifically in situations where i express my belief that present day mental healthcare is rooted in the dark ages. maybe iām the only one who says that, but i am sure many feel at odds one time or another with the therapist and hopefully the therapist does take that into consideration.
& @Kiwi2016 & @Dark111
my experience is that video may actually be pretty good and just phone kind of lacking. but with video my therapist still prefers phone because technologically video is not really āthereā yet. still for me it did capture more of the face to face qualities. i do get more frustrated on the phone and occasionally feel as if it had been a waste of time. phone does leave the gaps where my therapist has to say āhello-oo?ā. that would not be the case in person. sheād know i was deep in thought for one reason and not disrupt my thought with the hello!
my experience is that video may actually be pretty good and just phone kind of lacking. but with video my therapist still prefers phone because technologically video is not really āthereā yet. still for me it did capture more of the face to face qualities. i do get more frustrated on the phone and occasionally feel as if it had been a waste of time. phone does leave the gaps where my therapist has to say āhello-oo?ā. that would not be the case in person. sheād know i was deep in thought for one reason and not disrupt my thought with the hello!
i am in agreement with this but also i have been hurt by diagnoses in a situation where i was no longer able to see either of the professionals who were responsible for the diagnoses. i was left feeling that they carelessly hurt me and then made sure i was not able to try to feel better about it and resolve anything.
I spoke with mental healthcare and it was about me at my worst.
I never wanted to be my worst and it was thoroughly through my own efforts that I brought myself to a better place.
The better place was not much better. I'd have likely totally self destructed had I not taken steps to get help. I found help and was honest about my issues. As a result I was diagnosed as antisocial. And nearly immediately after, when my insurance changed I lost all the help. I was left with the condemnation of an antisocial personality disorder diagnosis, plus a ridiculous bunch of other confusing diagnoses and comments that a person such as myself is untreatable because meds don't work for AsPD and therapy is only marginal. i was also left with no significant help in finding new help. A bunch of former mental healthcare providers and others, who were āvery sorryā that I lost my help (them) only lifted their pinkies for a moment to try to see that such a person as myself would find uninterrupted help.
The interruption turned out to be 8 months. I am not convinced that the diagnosis was not some kind of spite or worse. I think a system that leaves someone in need of help and who is a person who is actively trying to make himself better and seeking the help, stranded, is dark ages!
I think spite is dark ages. I think as I mentioned earlier, punishment and revenge and "correction" are dark ages too. I've seen many here on SF telling tales of lousy mental healthcare and categorization and mistreatment. It's all dark ages because it is not compassion driven. its money driven at best. its a belief that the āmentally illā are lesser people who should be put out of the way. It's "let's clean up the place" thinking.
It is a refusal to own a part of the responsibility that society is full of ills that breed mental illness/disorders and or make it flourish. Then the industry, ruled by insurance companies that are certainly antisocial themselves, promote self serving requirements and foster closed minded thinking.
I know there are many compassionate people out there but they are frightened by the narrow or closed minded thinking and laws by fools who don't really understand mental illness at all. And that what goes on in one mind is not what goes on in another. treatment has to be very specific to the particular patient. That in this present system a diagnosis is very easily twisted into something hurtful and no one is able to do anything (or only very little) to make care actually be care.
It's all dark ages unless real open-mindedness somehow is able to change everything drastically. really big major changes that would infringe on the ārightsā of the big money makers to make the money and would make vengeance a thing of the past. there is probably a bit of sadism in our society as well. its dark ages!
I have ideas of changes needed too. many that iāve heard and some from my own thinking. I actually just attended a zoom for an intro to an organization for victims of childhood sexual abuse - that just kicked off a fund raising event. I plan to provide a link shortly. i think they are very forward thinking but still very unknown.
I never wanted to be my worst and it was thoroughly through my own efforts that I brought myself to a better place.
The better place was not much better. I'd have likely totally self destructed had I not taken steps to get help. I found help and was honest about my issues. As a result I was diagnosed as antisocial. And nearly immediately after, when my insurance changed I lost all the help. I was left with the condemnation of an antisocial personality disorder diagnosis, plus a ridiculous bunch of other confusing diagnoses and comments that a person such as myself is untreatable because meds don't work for AsPD and therapy is only marginal. i was also left with no significant help in finding new help. A bunch of former mental healthcare providers and others, who were āvery sorryā that I lost my help (them) only lifted their pinkies for a moment to try to see that such a person as myself would find uninterrupted help.
The interruption turned out to be 8 months. I am not convinced that the diagnosis was not some kind of spite or worse. I think a system that leaves someone in need of help and who is a person who is actively trying to make himself better and seeking the help, stranded, is dark ages!
I think spite is dark ages. I think as I mentioned earlier, punishment and revenge and "correction" are dark ages too. I've seen many here on SF telling tales of lousy mental healthcare and categorization and mistreatment. It's all dark ages because it is not compassion driven. its money driven at best. its a belief that the āmentally illā are lesser people who should be put out of the way. It's "let's clean up the place" thinking.
It is a refusal to own a part of the responsibility that society is full of ills that breed mental illness/disorders and or make it flourish. Then the industry, ruled by insurance companies that are certainly antisocial themselves, promote self serving requirements and foster closed minded thinking.
I know there are many compassionate people out there but they are frightened by the narrow or closed minded thinking and laws by fools who don't really understand mental illness at all. And that what goes on in one mind is not what goes on in another. treatment has to be very specific to the particular patient. That in this present system a diagnosis is very easily twisted into something hurtful and no one is able to do anything (or only very little) to make care actually be care.
It's all dark ages unless real open-mindedness somehow is able to change everything drastically. really big major changes that would infringe on the ārightsā of the big money makers to make the money and would make vengeance a thing of the past. there is probably a bit of sadism in our society as well. its dark ages!
I have ideas of changes needed too. many that iāve heard and some from my own thinking. I actually just attended a zoom for an intro to an organization for victims of childhood sexual abuse - that just kicked off a fund raising event. I plan to provide a link shortly. i think they are very forward thinking but still very unknown.
I donāt really know where to post this but since i mentioned it above iāll post a link here. I do not belong to this organization (yet) but i am very interested since it seems to be positively addressing issues that are significant in my life. i am still finding out about them and do hope to attend their ācircleā meetings, but like i said iām still finding out. the link i have is to their fundraiser event but it does provide another link to find out more about them. the organization is called Hidden Water. here is the link. (and maybe someone can suggest where i can post this so everyone can find it.
https://www.charidy.com/cmp/hiddenwater
https://www.charidy.com/cmp/hiddenwater
I have been thinking about this a lot lately. My therapy sessions have been over the phone since March due to the Covid virus. Since we have been using the phone appointments, my therapists is often 5 minutes late calling. I can often hear him using the computer in the background and have explained something really important to me and have him not answer for long periods of time and then say "huh" oh I was just reading something. Most of our time is spent with him telling me all his problems and opinions on covid and politics. He has really overshared in my opinion. I know his wife and her medical history. I know where he lives, his kids names, the church he goes to and on and on. I would like to find a new therapist but I'm in a very rural area and when I made some calls all the places are at their limit of clients because of the virus causing many people anguish and anxiety. I will continue with him for now because I feel it does give my week some structure and at least someone is checking in on me.
