low-dose THC (where legal) for depression

[Lady Wolfshead]

(please talk to Matt/Walker before modifying or deleting this thread. I have been told it's okay to discuss this)

I have tried over a dozen kinds of anti-depressants and nothing has ever really worked to lift the black cloud of doom enveloping my head. I feel it worst in the evenings (common with Atypical depression)

Well, pot is legal here and my husband often vapes it so I did too, but it took several uses before I felt anything except "weird." Then I got that high feeling where it's like you are "lifted" in your mind.

Vape bothers me a lot because I have asthma so I bought a sublingual (under the tongue) THC spray from a local store. It is quite low dose, I think 2mg per spray.

But I found out that 2 sprays, while it does not get me high, completely eliminates depression. It shuts it off like a light switch. I "reach" in my mind to test if it's there, and it's gone. I have never felt anything like it. What a relief.

Posting this for others in legal areas (or if you can get a medical exemption). I've heard people going on about the greatness of pot and never believed them - just figured they liked to get stoned, lol.

 

[may71]

But I found out that 2 sprays, while it does not get me high, completely eliminates depression. It shuts it off like a light switch. I "reach" in my mind to test if it's there, and it's gone. I have never felt anything like it. What a relief.

I'm glad that you're feeling better with this. However, I'd to caution that I think that THC is not a good long term solution.

I'm a former weed smoker. My experience was that marijuana made me happy at first, then it became something that I couldn't be happy without, then it became something that I couldn't function without.

I don't think marijuana and it's derivative products are full of happiness, and by ingesting them, the happiness goes into you. Instead, I think they drain your energy. So it's kind of like being able to draw extra money out of a bank account that earns a high rate of interest. At first you may enjoy having more money, but both your savings and the the amount of interest you get will decline rapidly, and you may find yourself worse of than before you started.

Now that said, a low dose may not be as bad. I also don't know if low-dose THC is necessarily any worse than taking an antidepressant.

I guess the bottom line is that there are other treatments that are safe and effective, so unless there are some good long-term studies of low-dose THC that show that it's the best treatment, I'd recommend against taking the risk.

 

[Lady Wolfshead]

I'm glad that you're feeling better with this. However, I'd to caution that I think that THC is not a good long term solution.

I'm a former weed smoker. My experience was that marijuana made me happy at first, then it became something that I couldn't be happy without, then it became something that I couldn't function without.

I don't think marijuana and it's derivative products are full of happiness, and by ingesting them, the happiness goes into you. Instead, I think they drain your energy. So it's kind of like being able to draw extra money out of a bank account that earns a high rate of interest. At first you may enjoy having more money, but both your savings and the the amount of interest you get will decline rapidly, and you may find yourself worse of than before you started.

Now that said, a low dose may not be as bad. I also don't know if low-dose THC is necessarily any worse than taking an antidepressant.

I guess the bottom line is that there are other treatments that are safe and effective, so unless there are some good long-term studies of low-dose THC that show that it's the best treatment, I'd recommend against taking the risk.

No other treatment was effective for me, though.

And as I said, I'm doing tiny amounts - and I've been taking it about 3 times a week. So far it's actually better than any antidepressant I've tried as there are no side effects. The relief from being 100% free of depression, even for a short time, is worth the risk for me. I am not advocating for anyone to become a pothead, and your analogy sounds like you are describing heroin or something.

Or perhaps it's a bit like a former alcoholic issuing dire warnings someone who drinks a glass of wine 3 days a week. I get it that some people have substance issues but not everyone is the same.

I think people are entitled to know about this. I'm frankly stunned that this has worked for me, but it does. For someone without substance issues (and always talk to your doctor or pharmacist about doing it if you're on pharmaceuticals) it's worth a try. This being a suicide forum it's also better than death.

 

[may71]

This being a suicide forum it's also better than death.

I agree with this part. However, I also think there are usually better solutions that someone hasn't tried.

I think people are entitled to know about this.

I think it's ok to share your experience. I'm not saying this shouldn't be discussed, but cautions and criticisms should also be permitted as part of the discussion.

As I see it, there are a couple problems with advocating this:

1 There aren't, as far as I know, any studies showing that low-dose THC is a good long-term treatment for depression

2 Someone could start out with a low dose, but end up using a much higher dose. My experience is that most people who end up abusing marijuana/THC start out using only moderate amounts, and then ramp up. It sounds like you've been very disciplined in your approach, so you might not be at as high a risk as others, but it could be a different story for other folks.

I'm a big advocate of Chinese medicine, as you probably know already since I talk about it ad nauseum here. From what I've researched, the metaphor about drawing money from a bank account that pays a high rate of interest is exactly how marijuana is understood from the TCM perspective, which makes marijuana/THC unlikely to work as a long term treatment. So the basic mechanism is the same regardless of the dose. I know many people may not take TCM seriously, but I'd at least like that to be known.

I think there are some cases where marijuana/THC is a legit medical treatment, like for glaucoma or as an anti-nausea agent for patients undergoing chemotherapy. There may be other examples too, so I'm not in principle opposed to this if there some form of evidence to back its use.

In addition to the treatment methods listed in this link:
Treating Depression, Anxiety, Insomnia, Pain; Other Suicide Help

...there are a lot of self-treatment methods listed in the book "Curing Depression Naturally with Chinese Medicine", for example, drinking jasmine flower tea.

So basically I'm only going to be onboard with advocating a treatment method if there's either a scientific study that supports it or a long clinical history of its successful use, and no indications that it might be on balance harmful. I'm just not seeing that with THC.

I'm not at all opposed to this being researched, I just don't think it's at the level where it should be advocated.

 

[Lady Wolfshead]

Unfortunately there are many political issues around studying THC as an anti-depressant. Too bad because it works like nothing I've ever tried.

As I say, it's legal where I live. Dozens of my family and friends use it recreationally, much as many people use alcohol. I don't know anyone who has had problems with it. Not saying that people don't - and obviously you did. But it's rare and THC is not considered addictive. The very reason Canada legalized it is because it doesn't have the addictive profile of other illegal drugs.

My husband had a medical exemption to use it years ago for fibromyalgia. As you said it is used for other conditions, with medical approval.

I really don't see a point in continuing to debate this. We're all adults and can make our own decisions. We all know the drill. Check with your doctor yada yada.

 

[Lady Wolfshead]

p.s. Mr. May, I think it's kind of ironic when you're calling for scientific studies, when most scientific sources consider Traditional Chinese Medicine to be a pseudoscience. And dozens of scientific studies have shown no clear efficacy of any component. I personally know people who've been helped by aspects of TCM, but I'm just saying the medical community has pretty much dismissed it.

As I said I was very dubious myself about any claims of TCH helping ANY condition even though my husband claimed it helped his fibromyalgia- I never took it until it was legal, even though my husband had it in the house. I figured anyone claiming a benefit (including my spouse) just wanted to smoke it to get high.

Here's how it holds up:

Medications I've tried. Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, Serzone, Effexor, Cymbalta, Moclobemide, Lithium, Pristiq, Luvox, Abilify, Lamotrigine.... and more

Medications that worked: THC sublingual, 4mg - works instantly. Lasts 2-3 hours.

 

[Lady Wolfshead]

Additions to list above, for some of the other scientifically-approved drugs I've tried: Seroquel, Latuda, and Wellbutrin.

Noxious side effects I've had:

- Wellbutrin gave me an eye twitch for months (I discontinued and re-started several times, and each time I started again the twitch came back, so I know it was the drug.)
- Prozac made my hair fall out (same thing with stopping and re-starting)
- Cymbalta made me totally unable to have an orgasm - fun, fun
- Seroquel had a "paradoxical' effect on me, making me unable to sleep
- Latuda made me sleep 16 hours a night
- Moclobemide did nothing but give me episodes of rage when I increased the dose
- Abilify made me wake every night from 3-6 AM

I tried each for 3-6 months. It was horrible.

The other drugs I mentioned earlier just had no effect.

Some of the medicines I've listed can be used recreationally, such as ground or snorted to get high. Does the fact that some people abuse them make them addictive? Also many are Hell to withdraw from.

For obvious reasons, Big Pharma, who control much of the funding used for scientific studies, do not like "alternative" medicines or treatments. However they have developed some medications from cannabinoids. Many people use THC for pain management, nausea from chemo, epilepsy, and migraines.

THC has given me zero side effects, especially at the dose I now take it (when I've used it to get high, I noticed a slight grogginess in the morning, same as with moderate alcohol use.) My husband has used pot for years for his fibromyalgia with no problems, and has never increased the dose to get the same effect. As with alcohol though, some people may have issues with it.

 

[may71]

Unfortunately there are many political issues around studying THC as an anti-depressant.

In places where THC has been legalized, there seems to be a lot of political support, so I don't think that works against it. Its been shown to be effective for reducing eye pressure in glaucoma and nausea in chemotherapy patients, so I don't know why there'd be studies saying its a good treatment in these cases, but not for depression if there was some political barrier. I also wouldn't know why experimental treatments with ketamine would not run afoul of anti-drug politics, but similar treatments with THC would.

Too bad because it works like nothing I've ever tried.

I'm glad that you've had good results so far. I genuinely hope that it works well for you. I just think you should be more careful about advocating this to others if the foundation for this is just short-term personal experience, especially when there are reasons to think it might lead to problems in the long run.

As I say, it's legal where I live.

It's legal where I live too.

Dozens of my family and friends use it recreationally, much as many people use alcohol. I don't know anyone who has had problems with it.

When my friends and I started, none of us had negative side effects, and none of us seemed to have a problem. Eventually, nearly all of us did.

Not saying that people don't - and obviously you did. But it's rare and THC is not considered addictive. The very reason Canada legalized it is because it doesn't have the addictive profile of other illegal drugs.

I saw a THC legalization debate, and one of the points made by the "against" guy was that about 20% of people who use it end up becoming addicts.

A lot hinges around what is meant by "addiction". Some people only classify a drug as addictive if the withdrawal symptoms lead to death or require hospitalization. So THC is not addictive in the same way that alcohol or opioids are.

THC is sometimes described as "psychologically addictive", which some people take to mean that it's not really addictive, because it's all in your head. That isn't really any different from saying mental illness isn't really a disease, because it's all in your head.

I can say from personal experience that at my worst, when I couldn't get THC, getting it was all I could think about. I wanted to quit, but I couldn't. Fundamentally, that for me is what the definition of addiction is, that when you want to quit, you can't.

My husband had a medical exemption to use it years ago for fibromyalgia. As you said it is used for other conditions, with medical approval.

The way that medical marijuana laws were written in most places, you could get mmj "if it could possibly" treat a disease. This allowed just about anyone to get a prescription from doctors who were willing to write them. In the US at least, there were doctors who would prescribe mmj to just about anyone, as long as they paid $200 cash for a five minute appointment, and said they had a medical condition that they wanted mmj for.

I really don't see a point in continuing to debate this. We're all adults and can make our own decisions. We all know the drill. Check with your doctor yada yada.

Ok, but if there's a point to saying there's a good idea to try it, there's also a point to saying that maybe it's not a good idea to try it.

 

[may71]

most scientific sources consider Traditional Chinese Medicine to be a pseudoscience

No. Please check out this link if you haven't already:
Chinese Herbal Medicine and Acupuncture, World's Second Largest Medical System

And dozens of scientific studies have shown no clear efficacy of any component. I personally know people who've been helped by aspects of TCM, but I'm just saying the medical community has pretty much dismissed it.

Just to note a few highlights, it's been endorsed by the World Health Organization, US Medicare will now pay for acupuncture treatments for lower back pain, and there are hundreds of studies that support the efficacy of traditional Chinese medicine for a variety of conditions.

Medications I've tried. Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, Serzone, Effexor, Cymbalta, Moclobemide, Lithium, Pristiq, Luvox, Abilify, Lamotrigine.... and more

I'm sorry that you tried so many medications without good results.

 

[Lady Wolfshead]

This debate is pointless. It's like arguing with a recovered alcoholic about whether others should drink alcohol. I know many, many people who have smoked it for years without a problem, including my husband. I've also read hundreds of articles about it. I've re-read some articles based on what you've said.

Bottom line: Pot is less addictive than alcohol. The cannabis dependency rate is about 7% of users. I guarantee you those users are doing a much higher dose, like I assume you and your friends were.

People can do their own research before taking it.

Tell me, if you found something that helped you when nothing else had, would you want to tell people about it? That's why I posted this. Not for myself - for others desperate for relief. I have already said people need to do their own research.

 

[Lady Wolfshead]

re: TCM " In June 2019, the World Health Organization included traditional Chinese medicine in a global diagnostic compendium, but a spokesman said this was "not an endorsement of the scientific validity of any Traditional Medicine practice or the efficacy of any Traditional Medicine intervention." - Nature, 2019

 

[Lady Wolfshead]

Article in Scientific American (2020) criticizing the WHO for including TCM in their compendium

https://archive.ph/20200406145913/h...nod-to-traditional-chinese-medicine-bad-idea/

 

[Lady Wolfshead]

from Science Based Medicine - also criticizing WHO for including TCM practices in its compendium

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/who-promotes-unscientific-tcm/

 

[Lady Wolfshead]

From Quackwatch, a site run by medical doctors, about TCM practices. Sounds pretty dangerous and unsafe to me.

https://quackwatch.org/related/acu/

 

[Lady Wolfshead]

****My point in posting these articles is that it's all about perspective. My own experience (and many other people that I've spoken to on forums like this) is that THC can alleviate depression. I've already given warnings about legality, interactions, dosage, age, etc. etc.

AGAIN I SAY: to anyone interested, do your own research. It works like magic for me, and it may work for you too. Just be careful, and get help if you think you're developing a dependence. Although at the doses I'm taking I doubt dependence is an issue. What can I do except endlessly repeat all the caveats I already have.

 

[Nick]

Hi @Lady Wolfshead -
A few months ago my doctor suggested I try THC in lower doses for pain management and anxiety. I was skeptical because I've had issues with THC causing paranoia and delusions, so I definitely don't want to go there. My doctor said some strains are far more likely to cause those side effects than others, and the dose also makes a difference. I use gummies and sometimes chocolate from a brand and source recommended by my doctor. I don't take enough to be high.

The dose I'm currently taking is enough to be "chill". My anxiety is significantly reduced (without the use of other highly addictive anxiety meds) and my pain is well managed without the use of opiates. For me, it's a win. I know it's not the solution for everyone. I'm really glad my doctor is on board.

 

[Lady Wolfshead]

Hi @Lady Wolfshead -
A few months ago my doctor suggested I try THC in lower doses for pain management and anxiety. I was skeptical because I've had issues with THC causing paranoia and delusions, so I definitely don't want to go there. My doctor said some strains are far more likely to cause those side effects than others, and the dose also makes a difference. I use gummies and sometimes chocolate from a brand and source recommended by my doctor. I don't take enough to be high.

The dose I'm currently taking is enough to be "chill". My anxiety is significantly reduced (without the use of other highly addictive anxiety meds) and my pain is well managed without the use of opiates. For me, it's a win. I know it's not the solution for everyone. I'm really glad my doctor is on board.

Thanks for sharing this. That's awesome. My psychiatrist (before she retired) was okay with me trying THC as well, and she didn't even know I would require such a small dosage to be effective.

 

[I Love Tomorrow]

Welcome back LW. I did miss you, and thank you for posting a thread about this. You and May71 both made some good points. I may comment on this thread further at some point as I have experience with it but I'd like to think about it first

 

[Lady Wolfshead]

Welcome back LW. I did miss you, and thank you for posting a thread about this. You and May71 both made some good points. I may comment on this thread further at some point as I have experience with it but I'd like to think about it first

Thanks ILW. I missed you too.

 

[Paul1963]

(please talk to Matt/Walker before modifying or deleting this thread. I have been told it's okay to discuss this)

I have tried over a dozen kinds of anti-depressants and nothing has ever really worked to lift the black cloud of doom enveloping my head. I feel it worst in the evenings (common with Atypical depression)

Well, pot is legal here and my husband often vapes it so I did too, but it took several uses before I felt anything except "weird." Then I got that high feeling where it's like you are "lifted" in your mind.

Vape bothers me a lot because I have asthma so I bought a sublingual (under the tongue) THC spray from a local store. It is quite low dose, I think 2mg per spray.

But I found out that 2 sprays, while it does not get me high, completely eliminates depression. It shuts it off like a light switch. I "reach" in my mind to test if it's there, and it's gone. I have never felt anything like it. What a relief.

Posting this for others in legal areas (or if you can get a medical exemption). I've heard people going on about the greatness of pot and never believed them - just figured they liked to get stoned, lol.

I hate weed: it always used to make me incredibly anxious and paranoid. But what you are saying about this spray certainly sounds very promising. I'm glad that you have found something to provide relief from your suffering. 🤗