Perspective?

[AlexiMarie7]

Anyone who has suffered from depression and has sought any help or done any research will know that 'positive thinking' is often touted as the most effective way to get better, either on its own or in conjunction with medication and other treatment. You are often in essence told that it is your fault in part, that you have to THINK BETTER. You are in control of your thoughts and that you must change these! And voila, there you will be on the path to a better life.

I disagree. I believe positive thinking and being aware of your thoughts is good for general self-awareness and to grow your mind and get more in tune with your spirit even. But I don't see this as the holy grail or cure all.

"Perspective" cannot fill a hungry belly if you are hungry and starving. Also, you cannot be stranded out in the freezing cold with frost bite, and "think" yourself better or think yourself warm. My point is that while this is admirable and we should all (not just mentally ill persons) try to be conscious of our thoughts, just changing this is not really a solution in many cases. It is not even a start.

You may say ok, well if you are stranded in the cold, at least you can think positively and keep hope alive that help is on its way, and try to use that hope to keep you going, one more day, then another and another. But....in reality, there comes a point where even hope is a burden too overbearing. Having hope can make it all worse. That drop you get from disappointment after igniting that flicker of hope, is worse than if you had not expected or hoped for anything at all.
As Nietzsche said: Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.

There are times when you literally NEED a change in circumstance that is often entirely out of your control. A miracle or divine intervention even. Something "needs to give"...but there you are with nothing "giving" yet battling yourself to think positively. Aside from being woefully insufficient at times, when does positive thinking cross over into delusion?

I wanted to add something about endogenous versus situational as well, but I think I will end here, as I already don't even know what the point of this post is exactly, except I guess that it all feels rather pointless, and a waste of energy that is in such limited (near depleted) supply.

 

[JmpMster]

The difference in your examples and the effect of thinking is one is perspective and one is fact. Depression has little bearing on facts, Rich people suffer from depression, and half starved nomadic tribal peoples in areas of the world with no luxuries at all and a life expectancy under 45 may never have hear of depression or felt it and profess themselves happy.

Attitude does not change physical situation and thousands and thousands claim they do not need meds or therapy cant help because the problem is there life just sucks because (list 500 factors of your choice here). This completely overlooks the fact millions of others are in the same or worse situations that are not spending their time thinking of ways to kill themselves and how much better they would be dead. And that is in fact the real issue - how one spends their time THINKING about the situation they are in- and what is used to classify depression. 10 people are starving, 8 decide to go look for food , 2 decide that might as well kill self because will never find food and even if did they will eat it and then when it is gone they will be hungry again and back in the same situation so what is the point of trying to go find food that they probably wont find and if do wont last forever, besides the other people deserve it more anyway, and them eating it will make the life harder on the other people, and they don't deserve the food to begin with etc etc.

It would truly be nice if the real issue with depressions was simply to solve the problem, then none would really need ever deal with it. Reality is that it is a mental illness because it is is all mental- attitudes and thought processes of the way people react , not what they are reacting to. If somebody is depressed and says it is because they do not have a boyfriend / girlfriend and they get one, they are still depressed 99% of the time, Same with jobs, money and every issue. It is after this cycle repeats enough times and they see non matter how the situation changes they are still depressed that finally some that refused real help before seek it. And it is the fact that no matter what changes , life still sucks that severely depressed people finally kill themselves - because then they go from believing that girlfriends, family, past abuse, etc are the problem to believing that nothing will ever make it better. The real truth is treating the depression instead of the situation from the start would have saved years of pain. Then, when they were hungry, they would have looked for food and when found it been really happy like the other 8 people.


Wanted to add- yes - of course bad circumstances and things happening can contribute or start the road to depression, but real depression is the belief that none of it matters in the end- like in your example sometimes situations just absolutely need to change-particularly to be truly happy- that is very true- but further on the statement "except I guess that it all feels rather pointless, and a waste of energy that is in such limited (near depleted) supply" implies more along the lines of depression- as does the divine intervention and miracles- it is just another way of saying nothing the person does or changes will matter.. and that is when changing thinking allows one to actually take the actions needed to change situations. When depressed no action takes place to change the situation due to the negative thinking and belief of hopelessness, and no situational change even form divine intervention will allow that person to feel happy.

 

[AlexiMarie7]

The comment re energy is for the hoping/thinking really.

But with respect the inherent flaw in your analogy is that the 2 people out of 10, were not doing anything or what they could (looking food in your example). But it is quite possible to be depressed yet also actively and intensely job searching (if looking for a job), or dating (if seeking a partner) for instance, but simply not yielding results despite best efforts. Lack of effort is not synonymous with depression, nor do I condone laziness.
One can be highly functional, without visible signs of depression or lethargy etc, doing all that you can do and fighting hard, but still not getting any results.
For those whose thinking is blocking them from actually doing, then I agree that that needs to change as we all have to at least try and trying includes action. But sometimes, something does need to happen in your physical world, and that in itself may not "cure" you but that does give you some impetus to continue pushing against the mountain, or give you a little breathing space so you can come back stronger and push some more. In the example with being stranded with frost bite, you can try to think to keep your sanity as much as you want, but ultimately you need someone to physically help you. After that, it won't be smooth sailing, you still have to deal with the frost bite, maybe you will lose some toes and have to learn how to live life without them etc. So there will still be more challenges, but at that particular point you just needed tangible help to be able to then go on to face the further challenges that no doubt await us all anyway.

I just don't think it is always something that can just be cured/fixed internally. Nor, do I think having an endless supply of hope is even the answer as sometimes that really does feel like it adds to the angst.

I guess it's just a poignant reminder that no man is an island; sometimes we need something we cannot get on our own.

 

[JmpMster]

There may be times when somebody needs physical help to accomplish things- those times in modern western world are relatively few, and when they truly exist they are pandemic not individual. In general life circumstances like getting a job, seeking a life partner etc, ultimately it will always come down to the individual. Once it is down to the individual level, while training , education, supports, and all that may be useful and provide assistance, it is ttil an individual task- nobody is going to make somebody else fall in love , and even if straight up handing a job it will not work if the individual is not involved and a participatory in the process of working. It absolutely is not something that can be cured or fixed instantly- because even handing the person the job or having somebody get in a relationship, does not change the persons feeling of depression. m It is very convenient thought that all i have to do is fix this one or two or 10 things , and then life will be great- and to give ones self the out that "is too many things to fix , it is delusional to think they can be so is pointless to try" it is in fact all attitude in the end or everybody in a situation would be suicidal and depressed but it is not the case at all.

The frost bit example- no if they never get warmer they will freeze, for certain, attitude is what makes some stay and freeze and some look for shelter. It also determines how far and how fast they walk in looking for it which is what has a direct effect on results - not in effort "perceived" but in effort actually exerted in a measurable way. The person moving slower and less far in fact probably feels like they have worked much harder- and will be able to explain why it is harder for them, but in the end if same size person, same basic physical abilities, the only difference in how far and haw fast is the attitude - bot feel like they are working as hard as they can to get something, but one is getting far more results because they are only fighting the problem, not the problem plus themselves and the negative attitude.

It is the difference in attitude that 8 get the job/ the relationship/ the whatever and 1 or 2 regardless of effort do not. I never believed this at all- until after watching here for year after year and knowing the people for year after year that they did get the job and the relationship etc etc and still were here and as suicidal and depressed as ever. Yet others that got treatment, or managed by some other to change attitude there whole life turned around. I never believed at all in meds- until I saw it here too often to not believe and then again in my own daughter- though was complete crap- but just too often have seen meds improve attitude and feelings then real life things changed- life went forward with absolutely nothing else changing. Equally stop taking meds and things nose dive, even reading through theses forums for 20 minutes "back haven't been here for a while , things were good, but back now as bad as ever, and in talking see that the meds stopped at some point 1-6 months ago.

The changing of thinking is in fact the cure of depression because that is what depression is - a way of thinking that leads to sadness, apathy, loss of interest, hopelessness etc. Whether one can force that change on themselves or not is open to much debate, but in the end , if the thinking changed by definition then one would not be depressed. It would be very nice to be able to abscond all responsibility for our own thoughts and blame the world and situation on the way we feel, but that is really belittling ourselves into believing that we are somehow worse than other people out there. Attitude changes results in clear easily measurable ways. The reason all the research and reading and therapists and people that have recovered from depression point to attitude as the key is very simple, it is. That doe sno tat all imply that can be changed without help however in form of some type of support.

As opposed to a philosophical discussion, which if this is all it is then is certainly fine, we can move it to the soapbox, how about put real parameters on the situation as you see it and clarify the situation as to why you feel personally about the fact your situation cant be changed without the divine intervention? None of this at all implies that there is lack of effort. What you said was indicated by some and by your research as the best way to move forward has made you think it was wrong and is a lot of energy going into trying to explain why it is not for your situation so instead of hypotheticals , we could look for ways for you to consider to try to improve your real situation (besides saying well, if you had a better attitude) because it is clear you are trying very hard and is not a lack of effort, so maybe some energy expended on figuring out the actual situation would be more helpful?

 

[AlexiMarie7]

I'm sorry but your first sentence appears to present a pretty myopic perspective (no pun intended) or perhaps it's a first world viewpoint, which is understandable if you are in a jurisdiction where resources of some sort are always available, and you just need to put in the effort to locate them and make them work for you, at least on an interim basis.

With the frost bite analogy, you are placing a burden on a person that they simply cannot bear. Like go run a marathon with a broken foot. They cannot crawl any further to seek help: that is where they are now. People have been rescued from the ocean after many weeks--it happens in real life. And if they had not been rescued, their attitude no matter how positive could not have saved them. And it does not have to be as dramatic as these examples, sometimes in life someone may tell you that one day they were down to their last $5 with no hope whatsoever when someone stepped in and helped them in some tangible way, even without them begging/asking sometimes. They were without hope, down to their wits end but external help changed the game for them. Of course that didn't fix their life forever, but it was a point when they absolutely needed and luckily received said help.

Also, as it relates to meds I know I read and commented on a thread just recently on here where someone on meds is just as suicidal in any event, and it happens. This is not to say that because of one story (though I do not believe it to be isolated) that nobody at all should use meds. That's sort of all or nothing thinking, just as I also think it similar to say that the thought alone is directly helpful in each individual case.

I just feel like sometimes it is not compassionate to even throw this unhelpful request/suggestion on the person: oh , think yourself better (so to speak) especially for someone who is fighting and putting in the work. I just think sometimes we have to be able to accept that factually and objectively speaking yes life sucks presently, and your thinking will not change that, but just perhaps try to encourage them to keep up the effort they have been putting in. Sometimes it really is just a time game.

And it's funny in a way that if for instance you are looking for a man/woman, so many people will tell you that it is when you stop looking that you often find the person. So, the advice is actually to sometimes stop trying! This example just occurred to me, but it is such a common example and thing that people genuinely say and which many people relate have happened to them. So, again sometimes it is a matter of timing, not even effort or thought directly.

I'm not really yet familiar with the different areas of the forum, so sorry if I have posted this in the wrong area--not sure if I can transfer it or what?. But I said what I mean and I mean what I said. Everyone is different; there is no magic cure or treatment or guaranteed effective start for everyone and I just think this applies to thinking as well in some (not all and probably not even the majority of) circumstances. But I reiterate that this is not me saying to not even try.

I think depression is the condition of feeling those feelings, which may or may not be linked to or caused by your thoughts. I don't think we can properly throw in one potential cause into the actual definition--I think that definition would be flawed, and it is in effect saying you have caused this condition and brought it on yourself (by your thoughts which you control)--this is not always the case.
If anyone's depression is caused by those thoughts and they can change them and be on their merry way (loosely speaking of course), great. But I just really don't think that is always the case, and I just feel like this should be recognised in some instances.

 

[JmpMster]

" sometimes in life someone may tell you that one day they were down to their last $5 with no hope whatsoever when someone stepped in and helped them in some tangible way, even without them begging/asking sometimes. They were without hope, down to their wits end but external help changed the game for them. Of course that didn't fix their life forever, but it was a point when they absolutely needed and luckily received said help. "

What that type of help and support did was change their attitude.

 

[Butterfly]

I have been thinking for some time of how I can answer this thread as I can see both sides of the coin here after suffering with various mental health problems over the last decade. I have suffered numerous episodes of severe depression over the past 10 years, and each episode affects me differently even if my circumstances haven't changed from the last bout. I have suffered from the not being able to get out of bed, not being able to motivate myself to do anything with constantly being swarmed with negative thoughts, negative thinking and the feeling like things will never get better. The only way that I have managed to get myself out of the pits of depression was to take small steps at a time. If I got out of bed and brushed my teeth, I celebrated that achievement. If I managed to make myself lunch, I celebrated that achievement etc. After a while it built me up back to a point where I could manage basic functions like getting washed, dressed, cooking for self, going out and getting groceries etc. As of late my depressions affect me slightly differently as now I have responsibilities and a house to run and a responsible job to go to. It can take everything I have to get out of bed and go to work. When I feel like this I just tend to brush my teeth, throw my hair back, get dressed and go to work as that's all I can manage. Work itself can be a struggle when I feel like that but I force myself to go. I would give everything to just stay in bed and mope all day, but I choose the difficult option to keep because it's all too easy to let the depression consume you and ruin your life. If I lost my job I would have no house, no car, no purpose, no nothing so as much as I loathe to continue forcing and torturing myself to keep going, keep going I must to survive.

I would not say that I have got through my difficulties with "positive thinking". Most of the time pushing on can make me feel majorly uncomfortable and even more suicidal and depressed. Although I continue to carry on I am still consumed with negative thoughts, thoughts of suicide and the "why should I bother, none of it makes any difference anyway" type of thoughts. But after a while you grow a tolerance to the suffering and the difficulty and sometimes building my distress tolerance is what helps me get through extremely painful and debilitating depressions. I know that a lot of people are not like me however, and they continue the cycle of helplessness and don't seem to do anything to break it. I don't think it's necessarily that it's because they have a bad attitude, or that they don't want to try to get better but it's more because they have developed something called "learned helplessness". It's a real thing where someone has been so beaten down by life events, situations repeating themselves so they feel like they are unable to escape their situation no matter what they do, so they don't even bother trying. According to Wikipedia, "Learned helplessness is behavior typical of an organism (human or animal) that has endured repeated painful or otherwise aversive stimuli which it was unable to escape or avoid. After such experience, the organism often fails to learn escape or avoidance in new situations where such behavior would be effective." I think after being beaten down by depression and unfortunate life events for years it can be difficult to escape and break the cycle, and even I struggle to break free of the cycle at times. I live in fear of every depression as the severity and intensity gets worse with each episode, wondering if the next depression will take me. I don't think "positive thinking" alone is going to be the answer to help people out of their depression nor do I think it is entirely appropriate or realistic. I do believe a positive attitude can help people through their depression, but it does take practice and require the help of doctors and therapists to get there and it is certainly something that is not going to be achieved overnight. I also believe one of the ways to develop a positive attitude is learning how to treat yourself and your problems with compassion.

So what is compassionate thinking? How can you possibly be compassionate to yourself and your suffering when you are so far entrenched in depression? I couldn't really find a suitable definition on the internet about what "thinking compassionately" means so I will have a go and create my own definition of what it means to me. To me, compassionate thinking isn't about thinking positively or wishing my depression away. It's actually about the acceptance of it and my suffering, and that under the circumstances it is actually okay to feel the way I do. Accepting the way I feel enables me to find ways of how to deal with it and find ways to move on productively. I will use the "apple analogy" that I used in chat to explain what it means to think compassionately.

You really, really want an apple but the only apple available is at the top of the tallest tree on the highest branch.

Depressed thinking: "I really want that apple, but it is too high and too far away. I'll never be able to reach it. I am a failure and I am bound to fail."
Positive thinking: "I want the apple. I WILL get the apple but I will not consider the possible difficulties I will face when trying to get the apple"
Compassionate thinking: "I tried to get the apple but it was too high and impossible to reach. I gave it everything I had but I failed and I am really sad and disappointed because I really wanted that apple. But under the circumstances it's okay to feel sad and disappointed because the situation wasn't in my favour."

It's not about accepting negativity or your situation, it's about being compassionate to your suffering so you can find ways of dealing with your suffering. Sometimes the way you feel can feel unjust and undeserved, and sometimes it's understandable why you would feel that way especially if you have been exposed to numerous situations that would make you feel hopeless and disappointed and depressed.

I think positive thinking alone can be dangerous because it doesn't give any consideration to the possible difficulties you may face when trying to achieve something, particularly if you are depressed and have a depressed way of thinking. With depressed people, it tends to end up in an "all or nothing" situation where someone with depression puts all their eggs in one basket, so if it doesn't go as planned then they will see themselves as a failure and feel like they have failed which only feeds into the "learned helplessness".

I don't think it's possible to "think" yourself out of depression, but I do believe that with lots of practice with the help of compassionate thinking that you can develop a positive attitude that will lead to positive behaviours that can help someone deal with depression.

 

[Freya]

You really, really want an apple but the only apple available is at the top of the tallest tree on the highest branch.

Depressed thinking: "I really want that apple, but it is too high and too far away. I'll never be able to reach it. I am a failure and I am bound to fail."
Positive thinking: "I want the apple. I WILL get the apple but I will not consider the possible difficulties I will face when trying to get the apple"
Compassionate thinking: "I tried to get the apple but it was too high and impossible to reach. I gave it everything I had but I failed and I am really sad and disappointed because I really wanted that apple. But under the circumstances it's okay to feel sad and disappointed because the situation wasn't in my favour."

It's not about accepting negativity or your situation, it's about being compassionate to your suffering so you can find ways of dealing with your suffering. Sometimes the way you feel can feel unjust and undeserved, and sometimes it's understandable why you would feel that way especially if you have been exposed to numerous situations that would make you feel hopeless and disappointed and depressed.

This is really interesting. The whole post was interesting but this section in particular. I guess what I am wondering is if there is some valid combination of Compassionate Thinking and Positive Thinking. I do think it is important as you described to acknowledge that it is okay to feel sad and disappointed about a failure - and I absolutely agree that thinking 'positively' all the time can be dangerous and problematic if it means you are not accepting the reality of the situation. What I am wondering is whether combining the two could be effectively combined like:

"I tried to get the apple but it was too high and impossible to reach. I gave it everything I had but I failed and I am really sad and disappointed because I really wanted that apple. But under the circumstances it's okay to feel sad and disappointed because the situation wasn't in my favour. I still want the apple but I need a new plan - I will reassess the difficulties and figure out how to overcome them, then try again. This might take time and involve asking for help or learning new techniques or skills, and that is okay."

I can only base this pattern of thinking on what works for me (and to be honest I don't do the first part - I do the "I am such a failure and generally a shitty person" part then I regroup and make a new plan later) but if I accepted the failure and disappointment without making a plan to succeed in the future I think that would lead to Depressed Thinking for me. I find 'making a plan' to be incredibly helpful - even if I have screwed up the New Plan eleventeen billionty times already - there can always be a new plan.

I don't think that "Positive Thinking" necessarily helps with depression, but a determination to 'keep going' certainly does - if only in so far as that it stops things getting worse. If you "keep going" you can improve elements of your life, or keep your life from deteriorating, which is important when you are dealing with depression, because any extra "problems" when you already feel like crap can be completely debilitating.

I am like @Butterfly - most days I do not want to get out of bed, do not want to go to work, would rather stay in bed (and probably fail to shower, cook, dress etc) but I don't accept that as an option. If I lost my job I would lose my home, my car, my independence etc. Losing those things would be a massive massive problem for my mental health, so I do not consider it an option to not go to work. I get up and I go, no matter how much I don't want to, and it is far far better for my mental health to do that and be productive and busy than it is to stay at home. That isn't "Positive Thinking" as much as it is "Not Engaging in Destructive Behaviour" - Doing things I know are good for me and refusing to do things that I know would have a detrimental effect on my life.

 

[Butterfly]

@Freya @NYJmpMaster @AlexiMarie7 @Adam

I think you do raise a great point Freya about the compassionate thinking analogy and making a plan to succeed. When I originally said the analogy in chat it was a bit longer but for the purpose of the post I kept it to acceptance of feeling disappointed and depressed due to the situation. The original analogy for compassionate thinking was something like:

"I tried to get the apple but it was too high and impossible to reach. I gave it everything I had but I failed and I am really sad and disappointed because I really wanted that apple. But under the circumstances it's okay to feel sad and disappointed because the situation wasn't in my favour. I take time to regroup and I settle for the orange in the fruit bowl instead"

Maybe aiming for the apple was a little over ambitious and not realistic to achieve, but I did try but as the branch was too high it was just impossible to achieve. I am really sad about not being able to get the apple but in the end the situation was beyond my control. Acceptance of this has enabled me to regroup and I can see a little clearer now, so the orange in the fruit bowl is a great result.

Compassionate thinking does encompass positive thinking to a degree, but also realistic thinking and acceptance. If you take one of my situations as an example: I encountered various hardships throughout my life. When I was attending one of my secondary schools I was targeted because of my colour. This lead to racial and sexual abuse. I was quite a tough cookie and if someone said something to me, I would most likely respond by either giving them a mouthful of abuse back or if they really crossed the line, I would simply lamp them one round the face. Obviously physical violence is never a good way to settle things, but under the circumstances it was at least understandable why I would lash out in that way. I used to get punished by the teachers for lashing out and sticking up for myself. I could have been groped or touched up in the lunch queue, and because I would shove them away, slap them or shout out them I would get punished no matter how much I tried to explain my reasoning for that. When it got too much for me and I actually did the right thing by walking away and out of the class room, I got punished for leaving the class without permission because it was either that or I committed murder as that's how angry and upset I was. Because I didn't want to explain why I walked out of the room in front of the whole class and was told that this was my only opportunity to explain myself, my head of year was not interested when I wanted to have a quiet word with her after and I was shunned and sent away. This lead to a massive breakdown at home so my dad frog marched me back to school to speak to my head of year. Her solution? To make me move forms. So all along I felt like I was being punished every time I reached out. There was other instances, but this stuck out for me.

I then moved away and moved schools and the way of life was so much different. I really struggled with the move and I got bullied by my new classmates and to add insult to injury my old "friends" where I moved from turned on me and started bullying me online. It tipped me over the edge and I started self harming. I managed to confide in my parents so I get frog marched to the doctors. I told him about everything that had been going on, and his response was "It's normal for teenagers to self harm when bad things happen, it's a phase and you will grow out of it". So this was another opportunity where I tried to seek out help, but felt like I was being ignored. Needless to say this lead to a suicide attempt.

There have been various incidences over the past few years where I have been suicidal and struggled and my MH team have not been interested, my old psychiatrist in particular. This lead me to believe that there was no point in reaching out for help because no one will listen or take me seriously. So when I was in crisis, I felt trapped because I had nowhere to go which lead to self destructive behaviour. So this is an example of learned helplessness. Ironically, during my compassion focused therapy I did not engage in the therapy for a good 9 months. I used to take stuff out of it and put what I learned into practice, but I never shared anything because I had this fear. When I finally opened up, my therapists told me that it was no wonder why I felt this way because I had had those experiences and I associated reaching out for help as a negative event. It was understandable that I felt that way and I accepted that it wasn't necessarily a defect of mine, but if I really wanted help then I needed to open up. It was quite a blunt conversation to be honest and I felt dreadful because of it but I was able to practice opening up in therapy, which in turn lead to me being open with my new pdoc.

A lot of compassionate thinking requires trial and error, patience and practice. Many of us when depressed want a quick fix which is why I think the acceptance part of compassionate thinking is so important because I think it can ground us and think "This is going to take time, but I will get there eventually". So I guess in a way that is positive thinking, but also realistic. I see it too often here where people put their eggs in one basket and put all their hopes on this one option, whether that is a date, or a job interview so when it doesn't work out they lose all hope and never bother trying again. They tried once, it didn't work so what's the point but it was probably unrealistic in the first place.

I hope this makes sense, I can expand if there's anything anyone wants me to explain.

 

[booklovr]

I visualize this life as a battle.alexie.
Like a game.u get one level through.u reach the next.u overcome one diffculty and brace for the next.
Life.it throws shit at you.and you .you fight it.sometimes physically.a lot of times mentally.
The key...the cheat lies in tuning your mind.mind is a tool.u can excercise it to perfection.
Your body is your tool to.u use it to fight your game.u take care of it.and of adionally you treat it.
Circumstances are beyond us.we can't help them .so is past.there is nothing at all we can do about our past except learn from it.
All we have is our body.heart.and intellect.we have a soul.we can act fight and move on.thats all.we can fall.we can hurt oouselves and can love and bond.