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Ideas & Opinions ASPD

Dark111

FORMER SF SUPPORTER
#1
I understand the stigma attached to this disorder and so didn't include it in my story. The more egregious behavior burns out of you as you get older but i still find certain aspects of human relations very challenging. The therapist who dropped me after 9 months likened me to a swan. I asked what she meant. She said "serene on the outside but seething fury underneath". I often wonder if that is the crux of this inner black hole, this precipice I waver upon. Where does this toxic self-hatred come from is my constant cry. But maybe I'm asking the wrong question. It's not about where the hatred comes from. It's who it's directed at.

I watch and I observe. I know what you're supposed to say to a troubled soul. And I have both witnessed & experienced the power of just being present for someone who is in pain. But my approach is more forensic. I want to investigate. I want details. I'm solution focused. But that seems to shut people down. They find it invasive and maybe a little harsh. I am trying but patience is not my strong point. It frustrates me when people are coy or incoherent. I have burned many bridges over the years with my aggression. And I still think they all deserved it. I see things for what they are but don't always connect with them emotionally. Psychologists say you may meet the criteria for certain personality disorders in youth, but at an older age this may no longer be the case. Age dampens the flames of pathology, just like it dampens everything else. That is all.
 

Acy

Mama Bear - TLC, Common Sense
Admin
#2
Dark111 has a professional actually said that you have ASPD?

If you have experienced the power of just being there for someone else, in the role of the person just being there, then you have empathy. Having empathy seems to be something that would contradict the diagnostic criteria for ASPD. I’m not a doctor, so I’m just going by what I’ve read. Did you get a second opinion from a mental health professional and some clarification of what it all means? It might be an idea.

As for the self-hatred you feel...Questions to consider, not necessarily answer here: Were you loved when you were young? Who loved you? Did you and could you trust that love? Could you depend on that person to be there for you? I think if there are doubts about those things when we are kids, it’s harder to build a solid sense of a “good self” as we become adults. Harder, but not impossible.

You mentioned in another thread that you are planning to try therapy again. I’m hopeful you’re at point where it’s another growing spurt for you. :)
 
#3
I can't help but think you were misdiagnosed. Not caring about others seem to be a core element to ASPD, but you do seem very much to care about others, though you may have trouble forming bonds.

I'm solution focused. But that seems to shut people down
I tend to want to "fix" problems too. It's gotten me in trouble sometimes.

Solutions are great when someone is open to receiving advice, it's just that it's terrible when they're not.
 

Dark111

FORMER SF SUPPORTER
#4
Dark111 has a professional actually said that you have ASPD?

If you have experienced the power of just being there for someone else, in the role of the person just being there, then you have empathy. Having empathy seems to be something that would contradict the diagnostic criteria for ASPD. I’m not a doctor, so I’m just going by what I’ve read. Did you get a second opinion from a mental health professional and some clarification of what it all means? It might be an idea.

As for the self-hatred you feel...Questions to consider, not necessarily answer here: Were you loved when you were young? Who loved you? Did you and could you trust that love? Could you depend on that person to be there for you? I think if there are doubts about those things when we are kids, it’s harder to build a solid sense of a “good self” as we become adults. Harder, but not impossible.

You mentioned in another thread that you are planning to try therapy again. I’m hopeful you’re at point where it’s another growing spurt for you. :)
I was diagnosed at age 20 after my father kicked me out of the house. Stuff I won't go into here. As for the therapists, I experienced them being there for me, for sure. They let me talk and talk and and they just listened. They didn't do any of those annoying mentalization exercises like they did at that clinic. What those therapists did would be considered empathy, right? That would be an experience of empathy? I think it was genuine too. I just don't think I'd be able to be that graceful. I'd want to cut all that out and get to the source.

As for being loved, I think perhaps my parents tried in their own way. I keep no pictures of my mother. There's just no connection there. She just wasn't a person to me, in any sense. It's hard to explain. The day of her funeral the only thing I cared about was getting her jewelry. She was a deeply unhappy woman anyway and I think on some level she wanted to die. And my father, sure he was a good provider but has the emotions of a brick. A hard man with an abrasive personality. I have no relationship with any of my siblings but i won't get into that here either. But yes, I do intend to enter therapy again. There's something wrong inside.
 

KM76710

Kangaroo Manager
SF Pro
SF Supporter
#5
I find much with people challenging like yourself and try to understand and at least behave in ways that most find acceptable. When I was in junior college although I scored fairly high on ASPD I scored extremely high as schizoid personality and was diagnosed as that. Most in life and with others I just see and consider them foreign. One of the few people part of my life beyond first relation family sometimes she calls me Dexter, I had never watched the show before but after seeing it I understood what she meant.
 

Mymindsmine

Well-Known Member
#6
I understand the stigma attached to this disorder and so didn't include it in my story. The more egregious behavior burns out of you as you get older but i still find certain aspects of human relations very challenging. The therapist who dropped me after 9 months likened me to a swan. I asked what she meant. She said "serene on the outside but seething fury underneath". I often wonder if that is the crux of this inner black hole, this precipice I waver upon. Where does this toxic self-hatred come from is my constant cry. But maybe I'm asking the wrong question. It's not about where the hatred comes from. It's who it's directed at.

I watch and I observe. I know what you're supposed to say to a troubled soul. And I have both witnessed & experienced the power of just being present for someone who is in pain. But my approach is more forensic. I want to investigate. I want details. I'm solution focused. But that seems to shut people down. They find it invasive and maybe a little harsh. I am trying but patience is not my strong point. It frustrates me when people are coy or incoherent. I have burned many bridges over the years with my aggression. And I still think they all deserved it. I see things for what they are but don't always connect with them emotionally. Psychologists say you may meet the criteria for certain personality disorders in youth, but at an older age this may no longer be the case. Age dampens the flames of pathology, just like it dampens everything else. That is all.
 

Mymindsmine

Well-Known Member
#7
So I get all your emotions as I was treated as you however o have learnt from the I heart programme that it is us who allow all those feelings to overwelme is. It is us who put a the feelings of pain and hurt inside us it’s our brain that makes us determine how we feel Aboit that situation . We were not born with pain it is us who have allowed these feelings to hurt us and oenetrate into our souls. How dare they . Why do we allow the pain of abuse and wrong to define us and mas us want to kill our selves. How dare our abusers have that power over us . Who the fuck are they to make us feel like we don’t wanna live anymore. If I .
 

Dark111

FORMER SF SUPPORTER
#8
I can't help but think you were misdiagnosed. Not caring about others seem to be a core element to ASPD, but you do seem very much to care about others, though you may have trouble forming bonds.
You might very well be correct, may. I don't have my whole identity wrapped around it and it's been interesting hearing all your thoughts. A young one does a bunch of anti-social stuff, and they give her a label. I don't know how many high profile cases I've read where one psychiatrist says it's this personality disorder and the other psych says no it's this other one or it's a mix of these other two. I will say i still struggle with forming meaningful relationships or connection with people; charm & carefully crafted words can often be mistaken for something deeper. When in rehab after a DUI(no one was hurt), this was often pointed out to me. Pity they offered no solutions.
 

Dark111

FORMER SF SUPPORTER
#9
I find much with people challenging like yourself and try to understand and at least behave in ways that most find acceptable. When I was in junior college although I scored fairly high on ASPD I scored extremely high as schizoid personality and was diagnosed as that. Most in life and with others I just see and consider them foreign. One of the few people part of my life beyond first relation family sometimes she calls me Dexter, I had never watched the show before but after seeing it I understood what she meant.
"Abandon all hope ye who enter here". You're a man of good taste. Dante's Divine Comedy is an all time favorite of mine and Canto III is quite exquisite.
 

KM76710

Kangaroo Manager
SF Pro
SF Supporter
#10
"Abandon all hope ye who enter here". You're a man of good taste. Dante's Divine Comedy is an all time favorite of mine and Canto III is quite exquisite.
Thank you. I do read a fair amount of not just old but at times fairly old literature. Here recently and I guess with the current pandemic been rereading are Jack London's The Scarlet Plague and The Decameron by Boccaccio.
 

Dark111

FORMER SF SUPPORTER
#11
Thank you. I do read a fair amount of not just old but at times fairly old literature. Here recently and I guess with the current pandemic been rereading are Jack London's The Scarlet Plague and The Decameron by Boccaccio.
Heh, well isn't this interesting :) You chose the Red Death whereas I went for cholera - Gabriel García Márquez, Love in the Time of Cholera. I'm also revisiting an old Philip K. Dick fav, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep
 

KM76710

Kangaroo Manager
SF Pro
SF Supporter
#12
Heh, well isn't this interesting :) You chose the Red Death whereas I went for cholera - Gabriel García Márquez, Love in the Time of Cholera. I'm also revisiting an old Philip K. Dick fav, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep
I am a big fan of sci-fi going all the way back to the old pulp magazine days of the 1930s and 1940s when many of writers were legitimate scientists who turned to writing to earn a living.
 

Dark111

FORMER SF SUPPORTER
#13
I am a big fan of sci-fi going all the way back to the old pulp magazine days of the 1930s and 1940s when many of writers were legitimate scientists who turned to writing to earn a living.
Frank Herbert's Dune saga changed my life. Whenever my therapist queried me on some delinquency I simply replied "I am the Kwisatz Haderach That is reason enough."
 

KM76710

Kangaroo Manager
SF Pro
SF Supporter
#14
Frank Herbert's Dune saga changed my life. Whenever my therapist queried me on some delinquency I simply replied "I am the Kwisatz Haderach That is reason enough."
I have always said if I were to describe myself from literature both would be from Jules Verne: Captain Nemo or Robur from Robur the Conqueror and Master of the World.
 

Dark111

FORMER SF SUPPORTER
#16
I'd forgotten about this thread but some stuff came up in therapy about relationships and social interactions.

Socially it's odd sometimes. I tend to stay out of conversations that people get emotional about. I think I have informed and well-thought out opinions on controversial topics such abortion, religion and politics in general, but my opinions seem to generally upset people. Interaction with family and friends is a matter of imitation of what those relationships should look like in order to deliver results. Duty and commitment are fantastic surrogates for love and loyalty. They look the same and can actually even be better, as duty and commitment can be demonstrated through actions, and people are very fond of the trope "actions speak louder than words". Love and loyalty are things that have to be felt. I can't feel them, but I know what they look like.

Having said that, despite popular belief, people with ASPD do actually care what other people think. No one wants to live a life alone and isolated. It's the entire reason we try to blend in. Why else would we spend time carefully constructing the right masks we do? That takes effort you know. And it's not like I'm completely emotionless; I have emotions for myself and recognize them in others but connecting the two is way harder. Romantic relationships are doubly hard when you have lust but no emotional ties and have to create a facade of love. It's disappointing when you see that your acting efforts weren't good enough because they began questioning if you care at all. To tell family or partners the truth would crush them - to know you enjoy them but if they popped out of existence you'd probably go make coffee and carry on with your life without shedding a tear.

Is pretending to care when you don't more moral? Is telling others you don't care if they die more moral? Neither are good options
 

Aurelia

Over a low sun, undo the undone.
#17
I'd forgotten about this thread but some stuff came up in therapy about relationships and social interactions.

Socially it's odd sometimes. I tend to stay out of conversations that people get emotional about. I think I have informed and well-thought out opinions on controversial topics such abortion, religion and politics in general, but my opinions seem to generally upset people. Interaction with family and friends is a matter of imitation of what those relationships should look like in order to deliver results. Duty and commitment are fantastic surrogates for love and loyalty. They look the same and can actually even be better, as duty and commitment can be demonstrated through actions, and people are very fond of the trope "actions speak louder than words". Love and loyalty are things that have to be felt. I can't feel them, but I know what they look like.

Having said that, despite popular belief, people with ASPD do actually care what other people think. No one wants to live a life alone and isolated. It's the entire reason we try to blend in. Why else would we spend time carefully constructing the right masks we do? That takes effort you know. And it's not like I'm completely emotionless; I have emotions for myself and recognize them in others but connecting the two is way harder. Romantic relationships are doubly hard when you have lust but no emotional ties and have to create a facade of love. It's disappointing when you see that your acting efforts weren't good enough because they began questioning if you care at all. To tell family or partners the truth would crush them - to know you enjoy them but if they popped out of existence you'd probably go make coffee and carry on with your life without shedding a tear.

Is pretending to care when you don't more moral? Is telling others you don't care if they die more moral? Neither are good options
You're not the only one whose opinions upset people. I know I definitely have some opinions that people would consider controversial or perhaps just appalling at times. So you're not alone there. Even when your opinions are logical and well-thought out, sometimes people are extremely upset by certain things (because they were taught their whole lives that X, Y, Z is "wrong") and don't want to hear them. So I keep things to myself when I suspect that that will be the case. There are not a lot of people out there who are that open-minded that you can speak to them about anything. Most people do have limits. Though, I don't think I'm one of those people, personally.

As for your ASPD, and sorry if this is too personal (but I'm just curious) when was it first obvious that you had symptoms? Do you feel that it's more so the cause of sociocultural factors or genetic?
 

Dark111

FORMER SF SUPPORTER
#19
You're not the only one whose opinions upset people. I know I definitely have some opinions that people would consider controversial or perhaps just appalling at times. So you're not alone there. Even when your opinions are logical and well-thought out, sometimes people are extremely upset by certain things (because they were taught their whole lives that X, Y, Z is "wrong") and don't want to hear them. So I keep things to myself when I suspect that that will be the case. There are not a lot of people out there who are that open-minded that you can speak to them about anything. Most people do have limits. Though, I don't think I'm one of those people, personally.

As for your ASPD, and sorry if this is too personal (but I'm just curious) when was it first obvious that you had symptoms? Do you feel that it's more so the cause of sociocultural factors or genetic?
You know I read your thread from a little while back. You put so much effort in to trying to explain yourself. No one was biting. The "Addiction is a disease" mantra that's been hammered into public consciousness? That doesn't do shit for people's perception. People - non-addicts - ultimately still see addiction as a "moral failing". Oh yeah they do. If not, why the shaming? Now I'm not dissing the intentions of the people in that thread, in fact I think their hearts were firmly in the right place & they do seem to care about you. But drug addiction always gets a moralizing like no other . A compulsion to SH? You get tears & encouragement, for that. Or maybe revered silence, maybe just hold our tongues. A compulsion to use? Bad girl, you know better. Empathy well has just dried up for you. I'm actually making a thread on that.

As for ASPD & socio-mukookoo and genetic voo doo, I've no idea really. I looked into it years ago and recall it's some combo of both. When I noticed? Fairly early on I noticed people would hesitate to do things I had no problem doing. Probably by age 10.
 

Aurelia

Over a low sun, undo the undone.
#20
You know I read your thread from a little while back. You put so much effort in to trying to explain yourself. No one was biting. The "Addiction is a disease" mantra that's been hammered into public consciousness? That doesn't do shit for people's perception. People - non-addicts - ultimately still see addiction as a "moral failing". Oh yeah they do. If not, why the shaming? Now I'm not dissing the intentions of the people in that thread, in fact I think their hearts were firmly in the right place & they do seem to care about you. But drug addiction always gets a moralizing like no other . A compulsion to SH? You get tears & encouragement, for that. Or maybe revered silence, maybe just hold our tongues. A compulsion to use? Bad girl, you know better. Empathy well has just dried up for you. I'm actually making a thread on that.

As for ASPD & socio-mukookoo and genetic voo doo, I've no idea really. I looked into it years ago and recall it's some combo of both. When I noticed? Fairly early on I noticed people would hesitate to do things I had no problem doing. Probably by age 10.
You're right, I definitely wasted a lot of effort trying to explain myself. Now that I look back on it, I shouldn't have even said anything, but I felt guilty and stupid at the time. I do think there are some differences though when it comes to various addictions. Those addicted to fentanyl, for example, have ended up broke, homeless, raped, ODed, shot, stabbed, etc., while those addicted to self-harm usually just end up with scars. Sometimes they end up killing themselves, but I would argue that that's oftentimes more so due to depression than a self-harm addiction. Of course, that's not the only reason people react differently to drug use (some of it also has to do with stigma, like you said), but I think it's a pretty big one.
 

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