Bush is A War Criminal.

[nicesinging1]

I didn't follow the 2004 Presidential Election carefully but was very surprised Bush was re-elected. At the time of election, Bush was in trouble. There were no WMDs found, soldiers were dying everyday as it is now and the war was in chaos as it is now.
Yet, Bush still managed to get re-elected. Why do you guys think American people gave him another 4 yrs to run the nation despite all the bad things happening in the Iraq War?
Also isn't it wrong to question whether Bush is evil or not? He may be stupid, incompetent for all he's done, but he is a christian guy, with seemingly nice personality. I read in the paper that he devotes his time on addressing poverty, AIDS epidemic, education for underprivileged issues, etc.

 

[TG123]

my thoughts on Bush

I didn't follow the 2004 Presidential Election carefully but was very surprised Bush was re-elected. At the time of election, Bush was in trouble. There were no WMDs found, soldiers were dying everyday as it is now and the war was in chaos as it is now.
Yet, Bush still managed to get re-elected. Why do you guys think American people gave him another 4 yrs to run the nation despite all the bad things happening in the Iraq War?
Also isn't it wrong to question whether Bush is evil or not? He may be stupid, incompetent for all he's done, but he is a christian guy, with seemingly nice personality. I read in the paper that he devotes his time on addressing poverty, AIDS epidemic, education for underprivileged issues, etc.

I don't think that Bush is a Christian.

He wages war, which goes against Christ's teachings to turn the other cheek. His bombing of Iraq and Afghanistan destroyed whole families and killed thousands of innocent people- that is murder. He supports large corporations with tax cuts while the poor in America and the world only get poorer- and Jesus says that we should make helping people in need our priority. Bush condemns and calls for the deaths of 'terrorists' while he himself is engaged in international terrorism.

I pray for him that he will turn from his evil and Satanic ways and turn to follow Christ. Now he seems to be more of a pharisee than anything else. Remember that Jesus said that not all who call Him 'Lord Lord' will enter the Kingdom if Heaven.

I don't hate Bush. But I hate his arrogance, his cruelty, his lies, and his using Christianity as a shield by saying that he follows God as he has his pilots drop bombs on cities filled with terrified innocent men, women and children.

I hope he repents. Because eventually it will be too late.

Cristo Vive!
- Tomasz

 

[ProzacDeathWish]

TG123 stated that "I don't think Bush is a Christian."

So, are you saying that any self-proclaimed Christian who doesn't agree with you on this topic couldn't possibly be a real Christian ?

Wow, and I thought that I was intolerant !!! :blink:

Billy Graham supported the war in Vietnam and even suggested bombing Cambodia. I guess he's not a real Christian either ? :doh:

 

[TG123]

TG123 stated that "I don't think Bush is a Christian."

So are you saying that any self-proclaimed Christian who doesn't agree with you
couldn't possibly be a real Christian ?

Wow, and I thought that I was intolerant !!! :blink:

If you are a Christian that means you want to follow Christ. Read up about what Jesus said about violence, treating the poor, and hypocrisy. It's not about what I say, my words are inconsequential and a waste of space and I know, that is probably the only thing we both agree on. It's not about what comes out of my mouth. It's about what He says.

No, I'm not perfect either. I did a lot of stupid and wrong things, and I continue to do so. I am a sinner, but I do not take pride in my sins and when I mess up I repent and try not to sin again. I also do not say that my sins are justified, because they are not.

Cristo Vive!
- Tomasz

 

[ProzacDeathWish]

Interesting to see that there are some Christians ( ie, TG123 ) who are more bigoted against their fellow Christians than even I am.

I'm an atheist and even I would never suggest that someone wasn't a Christian based upon something as flimsy as personal politics. How superficial.

 

[TG123]

Interesting to see that there are some Christians ( ie, TG123 ) who are more bigoted against their fellow Christians than even I am.

I'm an atheist and even I would never suggest that someone wasn't a Christian based upon something as flimsy as personal politics. How superficial.

I don't look at the issue of children dying of burns caused by bombs dropped over their homes in bombing raids or hungry people sleeping under bridges as a flimsy and superficial question of 'personal politics'.

God makes it very clear that He expects Christians to care about peace, about social justice, to stand up for the rights of those who are being oppressed, and to help those who are suffering. In fact, Christ tells us that He is incarnated in the hungry, the sick, the oppressed, the homeless... what we do to them we do to Him.

Politics has nothing to do with it.

BTW I seem to have missed your question about Billy Graham. His support for the war in Vietnam and the bombing of Cambodia was evil and against Christ's teachings. Hopefully he has repented, because it was a sin.

Cristo Vive!
- Tomasz

 

[ProzacDeathWish]

I don't look at the issue of children dying of burns caused by bombs dropped over their homes in bombing raids or hungry people sleeping under bridges as a flimsy and superficial question of 'personal politics'.

God makes it very clear that He expects Christians to care about peace, about social justice, to stand up for the rights of those who are being oppressed, and to help those who are suffering. In fact, Christ tells us that He is incarnated in the hungry, the sick, the oppressed, the homeless... what we do to them we do to Him.

Politics has nothing to do with it.

BTW I seem to have missed your question about Billy Graham. His support for the war in Vietnam and the bombing of Cambodia was evil and against Christ's teachings. Hopefully he has repented, because it was a sin.

Cristo Vive!
- Tomasz

Well you are entitled to interpret the Bible in any way you wish, but you clearly indicated that, politics or not, Bush was not a Christian because he "wages war".

I never said that the war in Iraq (and the attendent human suffering ) was a superficial issue, in fact it's a completely seperate issue from what I was adressing to you.

My focus was not upon the war itself; again I was more amazed at your statement concerning who is a real Christian. ( The word "arrogant" comes to mind. )

The difference between myself and you is that I can admit that I am sometimes a bigot. I will admit to you and every person on this forum
that most Christians make my skin crawl, and yes that makes me a bigot.

 

[TG123]

Well you are entitled to interpret the Bible in any way you wish, but you clearly indicated that, politics or not, Bush was not a Christian because he "wages war".

Yes. If you wage war you disobey Jesus. People who believe in Christ and follow Him don't wage war against others.

I never said that the war in Iraq (and the attendent human suffering ) was a superficial issue, in fact it's a completely seperate issue from what I was adressing to you.

I said Bush is not a real Christian because of what he is doing to Iraq.
You said that you are against me using such a 'flimsy' issue which you said was just 'personal politics' to judge Bushes walk with Christ. And you said it was superficial of me to do so.

My focus was not upon the war itself; again I was more amazed at your statement concerning who is a real Christian. ( The word "arrogant" comes to mind. )

Feel free to your opinion, I stand by what I say.

I repeat that people who follow Christ do not murder others. Bush does and shows no regret about it. Therefore he is not a Christian.

I do not think I am better than Bush and I do not advocate harming him or hating him. I hope he turns to Jesus because right now he is not following Him.

The difference between myself and you is that I can admit that I am sometimes a bigot. I will admit to you and every person on this forum
that most Christians make my skin crawl, and yes that makes me a bigot.

I sometimes say things that are arrogant, bigoted and rude as well. I'm not perfect and have never said that I am. My view on Bush is not based on me believing I am 'better' than him but based on what the Bible says.

Why do most Christians 'make your skin crawl'? Just out of curiousity.

Cristo Vive!
- Tomasz

 

[ProzacDeathWish]

Yes. If you wage war you disobey Jesus. People who believe in Christ and follow Him don't wage war against others.


I said Bush is not a real Christian because of what he is doing to Iraq.
You said that you are against me using such a 'flimsy' issue which you said was just 'personal politics' to judge Bushes walk with Christ. And you said it was superficial of me to do so.


Feel free to your opinion, I stand by what I say.

I repeat that people who follow Christ do not murder others. Bush does and shows no regret about it. Therefore he is not a Christian.

I do not think I am better than Bush and I do not advocate harming him or hating him. I hope he turns to Jesus because right now he is not following Him.


I sometimes say things that are arrogant, bigoted and rude as well. I'm not perfect and have never said that I am. My view on Bush is not based on me believing I am 'better' than him but based on what the Bible says.

Why do most Christians 'make your skin crawl'? Just out of curiousity.

Cristo Vive!
- Tomasz

Just some interesting quotes from Jesus, aka, the Prince of Peace:

Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on Earth. I came not to send peace but a sword."

Luke 12:51 "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you nay, but rather division; for from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided; three against two and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father. The daughter against the mother and the mother against the daughter; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

Luke 19:27 "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and kill them in front of me."

Revelation 19:11 "And I saw Heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in rightesnous he doth judge and make war."

These are the words of a peacemaker ? :hysterica Could you imagine Ghandi speaking in such terms ?

 

[TG123]

Thanks for bringing these up, ProzacDeathWish. Sometimes people on the right-wing spectrum of politics who support war (which I do not say you are a part of) use these quotes to justify war in Christ's name.

Let's look at them separately, one by one.

Just some interesting quotes from Jesus, aka, the Prince of Peace:

I take it you said that with sarcasm?... don't worry you don't have to answer that.

Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on Earth. I came not to send peace but a sword."

True. And the swords and spears and whips and crosses were turned against Jesus and His disciples. As Jesus makes very clear, people who truly follow Him may face persecution and need to be prepared for it. But they are to answer not this hatred with swords but with love towards their enemies and forgiveness and continuing to follow Him and preach and live out the Good News.

Luke 12:51 "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you nay, but rather division; for from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided; three against two and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father. The daughter against the mother and the mother against the daughter; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

True again. Many people after turning to Christ are reviled by their families and loved ones who are against their new beliefs. I have a friend who used to be a Muslim before she came to Christ, her family definitely did turn against her.

Luke 19:27 "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and kill them in front of me."

Jesus was speaking about God, the king is not a human king. Yes, in the end, God will punish those who chose not to follow Him. That is not a license for Christians to kill other people, and it is not what Jesus did while He was on earth either. This does pertain to the Day of Judgement.

Revelation 19:11 "And I saw Heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in rightesnous he doth judge and make war."

Once again, these are the end times which are being described here. This is not about what Jesus did while He was on earth or about what His disciples or Christians today are called to do.

None of these passages call for Christians to use violence against others. The first 2 describe the violence that they may face for being loyal to Christ, the last 2 describe what God will do on the Day of Judgement.

These are the words of a peacemaker ?

Definitely. Christ is the ultimate peacemaker. He calls on His followers to turn the other cheek when struck, to love their enemies, to be peacemakers, to put their own lives on the line as they work for righteousness and following Him, and to forgive those who are killing them for doing so. On earth, Jesus lived out what He taught about loving one's enemies and forgiving them.

Could you imagine Ghandi speaking in such terms ?

Gandhi was an extremely courageous and honourable person but not even he did what Jesus did for us. He didn't die on the cross for our sins.

Interestingly, Christ's teachings such as turning the other cheek and the Sermon on the Mount inspired Gandhi to non-violently oppose the injustices of British colonial rule in India. So he too recognized Christ's teachings on peace.
http://fatherlasch.com/article/472/jesus-and-gandhi

Cristo Vive!
- Tomasz

 

[ProzacDeathWish]

Thanks for bringing these up, ProzacDeathWish. Sometimes people on the right-wing spectrum of politics who support war (which I do not say you are a part of) use these quotes to justify war in Christ's name.

Let's look at them separately, one by one.


I take it you said that with sarcasm?... don't worry you don't have to answer that.


True. And the swords and spears and whips and crosses were turned against Jesus and His disciples. As Jesus makes very clear, people who truly follow Him may face persecution and need to be prepared for it. But they are to answer not this hatred with swords but with love towards their enemies and forgiveness and continuing to follow Him and preach and live out the Good News.


True again. Many people after turning to Christ are reviled by their families and loved ones who are against their new beliefs. I have a friend who used to be a Muslim before she came to Christ, her family definitely did turn against her.


Jesus was speaking about God, the king is not a human king. Yes, in the end, God will punish those who chose not to follow Him. That is not a license for Christians to kill other people, and it is not what Jesus did while He was on earth either. This does pertain to the Day of Judgement.




Once again, these are the end times which are being described here. This is not about what Jesus did while He was on earth or about what His disciples or Christians today are called to do.

None of these passages call for Christians to use violence against others. The first 2 describe the violence that they may face for being loyal to Christ, the last 2 describe what God will do on the Day of Judgement.


Definitely. Christ is the ultimate peacemaker. He calls on His followers to turn the other cheek when struck, to love their enemies, to be peacemakers, to put their own lives on the line as they work for righteousness and following Him, and to forgive those who are killing them for doing so. On earth, Jesus lived out what He taught about loving one's enemies and forgiving them.


Gandhi was an extremely courageous and honourable person but not even he did what Jesus did for us. He didn't die on the cross for our sins.

Interestingly, Christ's teachings such as turning the other cheek and the Sermon on the Mount inspired Gandhi to non-violently oppose the injustices of British colonial rule in India. So he too recognized Christ's teachings on peace.
http://fatherlasch.com/article/472/jesus-and-gandhi

Cristo Vive!
- Tomasz

Actually, at this point, I consider any further discussion with you to be :dunno: pointless. It's entirely my own fault as I should have known better than to discuss theology with a zealot. I don't want to sound mean, but I really don't care anymore.....sorry. :surrender

 

[Bob26003]

I don't look at the issue of children dying of burns caused by bombs dropped over their homes in bombing raids or hungry people sleeping under bridges as a flimsy and superficial question of 'personal politics'."""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Great Point TG123........ Makes perfect sense to me :smile:

I think Bush and his supposed Christianity and the entire moral majority movement has done ALOT to keep people away from Churches.

I know that I would like to go to Church sometime, however, I cant even fathom associating with Conservatives.

That is a shame.

 

[TG123]

Thank you ProzacDeathWish

Actually, at this point, I consider any further discussion with you to be :dunno: pointless. It's entirely my own fault as I should have known better than to discuss theology with a zealot. I don't want to sound mean, but I really don't care anymore.....sorry. :surrender

I'm sorry you don't want to carry on this discussion anymore, I thought it was very interesting.

Thank you for sharing your concerns about Biblical passages which have been used wrongly by some to wage war against others. I hope I was able to put them into proper context and show you and others reading this that they in no way advocate that Christians engage in or support war or violence.

I would also like to thank you for that 'zealot' comment. It's not very often that people call me by that term, and I take it as a compliment.

So thank you for all these things. All the best and I hope to talk to you again soon!

Cristo Vive!
- Tomasz

 

[TG123]

I don't look at the issue of children dying of burns caused by bombs dropped over their homes in bombing raids or hungry people sleeping under bridges as a flimsy and superficial question of 'personal politics'."""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Great Point TG123........ Makes perfect sense to me :smile:

I think Bush and his supposed Christianity and the entire moral majority movement has done ALOT to keep people away from Churches.

I know that I would like to go to Church sometime, however, I cant even fathom associating with Conservatives.

That is a shame.

Hey Bob26003,

Thanks for your encouraging words, and I agree with you- the actions of hypocrites like Bush and many on the conservative right have done a lot to turn people away not only from the churches, but from Christ. You are also correct that it is not true Christianity, but more like a 'supposed' version. It is deeply entrenched in the culture of profit, pride, imperialism and nationalism- none of these are Biblical or have anything to do with the Gospels.

I found it interesting that you said that you would like to go to church sometimes. If you are interested, I know of churches in the USA which are definitely NOT of the kind that support Bush or his actions. Not to bash you over the head with church or religion (sometimes I am bad with that, and do it without even meaning to) but maybe check out the website of the Mennonite Church of America.

http://www.mennoniteusa.org/

There are also many Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran and other churches which do also raise their voices against war and injustice, although not all of them will.

I think that even if you don't find a church in your area which is not the right-wing conservative model, I would recommend not giving up looking.

I am going to get real preachy soon so apologies in advance. I think it's really great that you recognize the difference between the words and actions of the warmongerers and hypocrites from the teachings of the Gospel. If you are interested in learning more about Christ or seeking Him, I encourage you to keep exploring. Check out the Bible, try to find some Christians or groups which also believe in Him and don't go along with the fake version.

Anyways, thanks for sharing your thoughts with me and good talking to you.

Cristo Vive!
- Tomasz

 

[ProzacDeathWish]

Re: Thank you ProzacDeathWish

I would also like to thank you for that 'zealot' comment. It's not very often that people call me by that term, and I take it as a compliment.


You're welcome and Dasvedanya !!:shake:

 

[TG123]

Re: Thank you ProzacDeathWish

I would also like to thank you for that 'zealot' comment. It's not very often that people call me by that term, and I take it as a compliment.


You're welcome and Dasvedanya !!:shake:

Cool, are you Russian by any chance?

Do Widzenia. (Polish) :smile:

Cristo Vive!
- Tomasz

 

[theleastofthese]

There are many 'Christians' who don't follow Christ's teachings. There are also many who do. I try to avoid those who talk the talk but don't walk the walk. (the church I attend is very liberal-thinking as far as loving one's neighbor and working for peace) We will all get our judgement on Judgement Day and it will all be ironed out then. Til then I just try hard to mind my own business and do unto others as I would have done unto myself. Faith without works is dead.

least wanting to offend anyone, most wanting to show kindness and mercy to all... am I desiring the impossible or the unbelieveable? Seems like it sometimes... Not trying to stir up debate or animosity, just my own opinion, that's all.

 

[ProzacDeathWish]

Re: Thank you ProzacDeathWish

Cool, are you Russian by any chance?

Do Widzenia. (Polish) :smile:

Cristo Vive!
- Tomasz

Nyet! ....er, I mean "no". My ancestry is mostly German and British.