Confused (God, suicide, Hell...) Religious Discussion

[thinker]

Re: Confused (God, suicide, Hell...)

Here's something that might interest those grappling with the issue of suicide and going to hell. See if it might make any sense to you about why some people are unable to show compassion for those that commit suicide. You see, they can't allow their own internal structure to collapse.

//Where n is Suzy

AlmightyGodApproves = Certainty, Security, Comfort, SimpleTruth, EternalLife

AlmightyGodDissaproves= EternalHell

NoGod = ComplexityConfusion, CognitiveDissonance

SuicideCase= n

IF SuicideCase= TRUE THEN AlmightyGodDissaproves

ELSE NoGod



A person with this program fully loaded in their head has to either dissociate from their feeling of compassion for Suzy, dissociate from a part of their identity involving God and Hell, or dissociate from their belief in God altogether. In other words, it's a choice between feeling for God and feeling for Suzy. More accurately, we could say that it's a choice between the self and Suzy, since belief in God may be be the largest part of the self-identity for the true believer. Any other person without this program doesn't have to make that choice and will probably automatically express compassion for Suzy.

So I think there is a big internal difference between people who have a more esoteric belief in God and people who have a strong belief in a punishing God. Such a belief happens to be more effective in controlling behavior in general when that program is deeply ingrained.

 

[InnerStrength]

Re: Confused (God, suicide, Hell...)

I could be wrong. But I think the Bible mentions the acceptability of suicide under certain circumstances, such as preserving honor (hard to explain) or saving yourself from undeniable torture. Also, if mental illness is present, it's a bit hard to judge it as a black and white issue.

 

[consciousinsane]

Re: Confused (God, suicide, Hell...)

I was looking for something to prove or disprove innerstrength's post. I came across this site.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-dml/dml-y038.html

There are some other questions people may find themselves asking at the end of the page as well.

I'm not saying you have to read it or believe it. So don't post back at me with all sorts of opinions. Open minds people....open minds.

 

[TheBLA]

Re: Confused (God, suicide, Hell...)

Imagine holding on to the edge of a cliff for dear life. You try pullign yourself up but you dont have the strength and you cant hold on much longer. Thats what suicide is to me. People holding on for their life until they have nothing left and ultimately fall to yoru demise.

I think thats a really good analogy Multiple Man. :smile:

 

[LSD]

Re: Confused (God, suicide, Hell...)

yeah good analogy..

--
well i was thinking of this part, i belive good people go to heaven and many people agree with the part, god doesn't say suicide is a sin in the bibble the link that consciousinsane posted prove that-

but still this doesn't stop be from having suicide thoughts.. oh gosh-- i want to die so badly, but then i feel like shit, cuz maybe i'm just making all i feel? i'm just a crybaby over reacting about how things of life are?- why i'm so stupid and start to look for a way of feeling better than looking ways for harm myself-- idk i just hate me so much that i wish it could stop soon

idk this religious things just give me a headache and i wonder why god just stare at us looking how many people suffer and not doing anything-
tru thing that miracles happen to few people but why not everybody?

arg-- dont aswer my stupid questions -- i'm just talking withmyself

 

[InnerStrength]

Re: Confused (God, suicide, Hell...)

I was looking for something to prove or disprove innerstrength's post. I came across this site.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-dml/dml-y038.html

There are some other questions people may find themselves asking at the end of the page as well.

I'm not saying you have to read it or believe it. So don't post back at me with all sorts of opinions. Open minds people....open minds.

Which post of mine are you trying to disprove? Keep in mind I am not religious, but merely stating what I believed the Bible to have said.

 

[consciousinsane]

Re: Confused (God, suicide, Hell...)

I could be wrong. But I think the Bible mentions the acceptability of suicide under certain circumstances, such as preserving honor (hard to explain) or saving yourself from undeniable torture. Also, if mental illness is present, it's a bit hard to judge it as a black and white issue.

Don't worry. I understand. It's not that it's your opinion, just what knowledge you've obtained. Nor is it mine. I was just pondering your post as a possible way out, or at least something to entertain my mind till I get off work. :biggrin:

 

[Aquariamethystea]

Re: Confused (God, suicide, Hell...)

I am very proud to know many of you are compassionate people in your beliefs regarding this issue. The mentioning about Jesus having died for our sins being a form of suicide, is a very interesting theory, which I agree. From what I have been told, Jesus could have prevented what had happened to him, yet he chose to die, on the method he died. Also, it would be evil if god would send a person to hell, if that person ended their life because they couldn't cope due to a mental/physical reason.

 

[Ziggy]

Re: Confused (God, suicide, Hell...)

Suicide is a sin?
Lying is a sin.
I am a hedgehog!
Let me burn in hell forever!

 

[thecleric]

Re: Confused (God, suicide, Hell...)

I could be wrong. But I think the Bible mentions the acceptability of suicide under certain circumstances, such as preserving honor (hard to explain) or saving yourself from undeniable torture. Also, if mental illness is present, it's a bit hard to judge it as a black and white issue.

Sorry, but you're wrong. The number of suicides in the Bible is surprisingly small, and none have anything to do with mental illness. Here are all that I can find (biblegateway.com has a search engine with a few dozen common translations):

1. Samson (of Delilah fame). Judges 16:29. After getting his hair cut & losing his strength, Samson is captured by the Philistines and tortured. He pulls down the columns of the building he's in, killing the head Philistines along with himself.

This isn't a classic suicide, so much as an extremely audacious attack on an enemy.

2. Saul (first king of Israel). 1 Chronicles 10:4. Saul and his sons are surrounded by a Philistine army. Saul falls on his sword, rather than face torture.

Closer to a classic suicide, and certainly relevant to your statement about escaping torture or preserving honor. But the conclusion of that chapter: "Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance, and did not inquire of the LORD." So the author isn't too impressed with Saul's excuses.

3. Ahithophel (no, I'd never heard of him either). 2 Samuel 17:23. Had counseled fellow Israelites to rise up against king David. The plot unravels, and so "He put his house in order and then hanged himself."

This is pretty close to a classic suicide, caused by regret over one's actions. He obviously has time to deliberate (since he put his house in order). But there's no text regarding him being forgiven despite his suicide. Rather, Ahithophel is (earlier) vilified for being a false friend to David.

4. Zimri (an obscure king of Israel). 1 Kings 16:18. Overthrew the previous king, ruled for a week, and got caught. Surrounded by an angry mob of his former subjects, Zimri burns down the palace around himself.

Again, it's a case of a person committing a big sin and having it backfire. As to his being forgiven, here's what the passage says: "So he [Zimri] died, because of the sins he had committed, doing evil in the eyes of the LORD and walking in the ways of Jeroboam and in the sin he had committed and had caused Israel to commit."

5. Judas (apostle of Jesus). Matthew 27:5. Judas makes a deal with the authorities in Jerusalem to give up Jesus. Jesus is arrested and executed. Judas hangs himself.

I think everyone can guess how he comes off.



So, sorry, but there's absolutely no evidence in scripture of their being excuses for suicide.

There's plenty of scripture that comes out against killing people, and about the intrinsic value of human life.

There's plenty of scripture that emphasizes God's willingness to judge sinners harshly.

There's also plenty of scripture that emphasizes God's love and forgiveness.

As I said before, suicide is an unique sin because, by its very nature, it negates the chance at atonement. So I wouldn't be surprised if God treats suicides with considerably less anger than murderers. But I don't know that for sure, and there's no specific scripture to suggest it.

Faced with suicide, the church is reduced to hope in God's forgiveness.


P.S. If I come across as sounding annoyed, I'm not sorry. It took me longer to type this post than to find the passages in it. In the age of Google, if you can't be bothered to look it up, be prepared to look like an idiot.

 

[thecleric]

Re: Confused (God, suicide, Hell...)

I'm not sure why suicide is considered the "ultimate sin" in some reaches of Christianity. Maybe it does have to do with the fact that you cannot redeem yourself afterwards; however, many who commit murder do not redeem themselves either, so the point seems moot.

Huh? The difference is that in the case of the murderer, he chooses not to atone for his sin. In the case of the suicide, he doesn't have the chance to choose.

But all of this is becoming a little silly, with thinker writing pseudocode to summarize God's behavior, and the rest of the atheists getting upset that God might dare to place some rules (whatever they might be) on our behavior.

Yes, Christians have reason to believe that God is loving and forgiving. And because they are grateful for God's love, they act with reverence toward Him. Just throwing up your hands and saying "Do what you want--God is a pushover" is foolish. By negating any sense of responsibility to God, you're implying that His love/forgiveness is irrelevant or non-existent.

Yes, we can hope for forgiveness. But that implies a responsibility to know, love, and serve God in this world, so as to be happy with Him in the next.

 

[Ziggy]

Re: Confused (God, suicide, Hell...)

So now we mere mortals know how God behaves, what God thinks, how God judges people, what sins God thinks are better or worse than other sins? I just hope that when we die God has the same beliefs we do.

 

[thecleric]

Re: Confused (God, suicide, Hell...)

Oh goodness. Here it goes again. Another religious discussion on the suicide forum, well, at least this topic thread hasn't been preachy, so far, and many of you made some very good statements about the issue regarding suicides being punished by God. I do not believe suicides go to hell. I believe that they are forgiven and loved by God just as much as anyone else who would be, and if there is a heaven, I believe suicides will be there.

I certainly hope God can forgive suicides, since I've been close before, am close now, and probably always will be.

But I don't see the point of your dismissive tone about religious discussion. Religion is central to many of the issues we suicidal types face. If we disagree, fine. Argue it out.

But without religious impulses, we're reduced to offering (((hugs))) and putting up that amazingly stupid "Welcome to Suicide Forum!!" smiley.

 

[Ziggy]

Re: Confused (God, suicide, Hell...)

Debating religion is fine, but when Jesus says "Love your neighbour as yourself" why spend ages debating "When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace"? I'm actually going off Christianity more and more as I read this post, if you're trying to convert people to atheism then well done.

 

[Esmeralda]

Re: Confused (God, suicide, Hell...)

Haha. I agree with thecleric here. Why can't someone bring up religion here without being "crucified" for it? The fact is, the vast majority of people believe in God and this belief affects their behavior a great deal on many levels, especially when it comes to topics of life and death. I didn't realize I had stumbled into the "Athiest suicide forum". And the cleric is right. That Welcome to suicide forum hug crap is totally lame, like we just walked into Disneyland or something. Sheesh.

 

[Ziggy]

Re: Confused (God, suicide, Hell...)

"That Welcome to suicide forum hug crap is totally lame, like we just walked into Disneyland or something. Sheesh."

That is the most offensive thing I think I have ever read on this board.
People are trying to be loving, to be caring, to be Christian even?

And it's a Christian who turns around and mocks them for it!
Priceless!
Carry on, mock people on this site! Dismiss all our efforts and intentions to help other people! Show us what your Christianity is really all about!

 

[Esmeralda]

Re: Confused (God, suicide, Hell...)

And Ziggy, I don't think anyone here is claiming to know exactly what God thinks/feels, etc. But those who believe in God do the best they can to divine this from what we read and through the traditions of the Church and do our best to act accordingly. God may in fact forgive suicide, and I hope that He does, but I don't personally think it's a risk worth taking.

 

[Ziggy]

Re: Confused (God, suicide, Hell...)

Sorry for my last comment.
This topic is getting a bit out of control.
We're now getting to the point where we could be upsetting and offending other people.
Let's bear that in mind and tone it down a bit eh?

 

[thecleric]

Re: Confused (God, suicide, Hell...)

Sorry for my last comment.
This topic is getting a bit out of control.
We're now getting to the point where we could be upsetting and offending other people.
Let's bear that in mind and tone it down a bit eh?

Point taken. But the enthusiastic welcome people are offered here is grotesque. You've joined suicideforum, not the Mickey Mouse Club. ASH might be a little too evil, but their traditional "Welcome to ASH, sorry you're here" is at least honest and appropriate.

 

[Esmeralda]

Re: Confused (God, suicide, Hell...)

I did not mean to be offensive, although I don't really understand how that was an unchristian comment. I just think they lay it on a little thick, that's all. Sorry to offend, but that's my opinion.