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Desperate

FauxMorale

Active Member
#1
Been 6 years in a depressive state, I don't know how much of my mental cognitive ability is gone, probably atleast 40% not kidding, slurred speech, tendencies to go off on tangents, hyperbolic, insomnia. Tried ideas contacting, help in my jsut yestreday after relaisign tring to get help on the forum wasnt practical, country, Barbados, being gay and open is hard, I haven't gone outside in 6 years and no one can take the small steps for me, neither can any help me beyond just telling me to do it, everyw\one has given up, I gave up on my self many times no matter what I do can never go back to being normal human again, the help service I have is predominantly Christian, I am alone o this, I either leave the country and try seek refugee status, or I stay here a spastic and bitter depressed before I inevitably end it, no one I have told this to sees any way but me getignout on my own and I have tried before and failed , my mind is fucked I cant get back into the ratrace, too many years addicted to the internet, the pessimism, complete breakdown of my psyche , torture then finally a quiet I can see things clearly that never before, but I am permanently damaged for it , I tried tak ign it slow tell ign myself it wil lbe all right ,I cannto reintegrate , I have n o issue with the pople thatn the laws and thei r moral codes, its all come tho this fate, I see the world going on fine withoutme I cant endure thesufferigoflife anymoreno progress company couldever chagne the mental state I felle like lits too late to change my fate , regardless of the solution given, pulling up my bootstraps etc no mater the ematphy, it think peopel recognise when its too late, thers no such thingas free will everyone has a fate, andeveryone will siletly watch me fade, I know this becuase somone similar to myself I ignored, he was gay 14 and killed for having sex for money, he was in absject poverty, I am not, thtats the onyl diffence yet he had no choice, none of us do , we just do as we were meant to be previous actions, and by hte wrost that is unjsutified is how wederive oughts nad morals to steer other from unjsutifaable stadrds liek that kid, other wise he was fated to die, just as I ja\have no right to jutify any progres in my life when thta was his fate, I can tell that I havefallen to deep then same shit that lead to me being NEET 6yeras will carryo nthroguh the rest of my life, it never goe away the shit memoreis, the path is set and selaed no matter what I doI cnat even make the aeffrot tot ry and save myself I was fated to be a loser and a degnernate, life will go on no matter how my intellgence cna ratioalsie it cannot undo the past but in knwoign my own I can predicthtat it wotn get better ther is no will absoltuely to even try, the siplest ways to correct anyhting as ther alwys was sicneth first step into forever doomed jus like him, no optimism to balance out my pesims coudl change m fate becuse it cant relaiticlaly unto the shitthta go me her e that iwll affect everyhtign tht I do ther nothing anyone cna do but observe, , and never speka of it again , it has happeend befero its been articualted, fate is kowable and is a damned thing to admit once you know it, I will just be another anecdote to some moral guideline on how to operate, thats how history of humaity has jsutified itself and the worst unjustfiable tragedies for the ones that are fated to see their 20s,30s and so on and make the progress that I truly think we aregoin to come to a point in civilsation with these philosophical postiions, beign justified to prevent animal suffering, declining birth rates etc that what I'm sayign is nt jsut the rambllign s of a troubled exception to the rule, I find thatn my unjust suffering lead me to find strogner convciitons in my moral convicitosn than ever , and I neblieve that his and m sufferign wont be for nothing or ay vapid notion of progress. worth that dogshit unjustified cruelty.
 

Nick

Loves Freya
Staff member
Safety & Support
SF Supporter
#2
It sounds like you are struggling with being yourself, especially being yourself in public. Would that be correct? It's hard for many of us not to hide behind our masks and watch as a society that doesn't understand us keeps moving forward while we stand watching it pass by.
 

FauxMorale

Active Member
#4
.

@FauxMorale

Whats bothering you the most right now out of all of the points you mentioned?
I can't seem to find the will, I see a path, I know what want to become long term, an activist against animal cruelty, humanitarian work, but all my anguish in life has lead me to that path, it would be the ONLY thing that brings me any good salvation, but that anguish impairs my will, I just can't leave my computer, I feel like if I do i leave my brain with it or something, sounds ridiculous I know but the time I did try to go out and try to be responsible I just had a meltdown, I have another and I go to jail, I get raped, if I defend myself I get killed by some psycho in prison, I know because someone 6 years younger than me died recently for doing homosexual acts and when they retaliated against those that were treating him they killed him in cold-blood. So now I just have to not fuck it up as he did then its all a-ok and that's all I see life as, you just try not to be the loser and in it life creates more losers, I don't see an end to this bullshit , no one seems to be able to point to me the justification for the suffering that we have no free will over yet we cause it on ourselves and somehow on othersof but we are just guided by those from the past and those fkcing up I the present those in the but how is that progress
 

Lara_C

SF Supporter
#5
I was fated to be a loser and a degnernate
I can predicthtat it wotn get better ther is no will absoltuely to even try,
fate is kowable and is a damned thing to admit once you know it
I can't prove or disprove your belief in fatalism, but I do know that in believing you are nothing but a powerless object of forces beyond your control, and therefore whatever you do to change the dictates of an inexorable fate is useless, you are setting up a self fulfilling prophecy.

I don't believe anyone is predestined from birth to suffer and die by suicide, and although we do not have complete freedom over the inner and outer conditions we find ourselves in, we are not completely powerless to change these for the better. You have the freedom to choose what you believe and if you choose to believe in your ability to take control of your destiny, you are more likely to make choices which step by step lead to better conditions.
 

FauxMorale

Active Member
#6
I can't prove or disprove your belief in fatalism, but I do know that in believing you are nothing but a powerless object of forces beyond your control, and therefore whatever you do to change the dictates of an inexorable fate is useless, you are setting up a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I think you are honorable for admitting we don't have complete freedom, it is curiosity that killed the cat, but I think we have to understand that suicide is not a free choice and is not something you have to believe in or not as predetermined, its a fact that it is independent of you knowing it as a belief, a proven effect from thinking that it was, becuase evidence, can change your mind and that is an effect which is not faith and the evidence from which we can know things are predetermined are not faith-based just as you know that you are alive is not disprovable in my faith that you are not alive, but the evidence, tells me you are alive and that is self-evident from cause and effect, not a self-fulfilling prophecy based on free will or faith, anything outside of reality cannot affect what is inside your mind it , its not like everyone has clock and you have to reach nirvana before the time runs and the clock doesn't reset if you willingly don't reach it in time.

I don't believe anyone is predestined from birth to suffer and die by suicide, and although we do not have complete freedom over the inner and outer conditions we find ourselves in, we are not completely powerless to change these for the better. You have the freedom to choose what you believe and if you choose to believe in your ability to take control of your destiny, you are more likely to make choices which step by step lead to better conditions.


How you are affected in reality depends on cause and effect, suicide is rational to the extent that it is not a belief that something went wrong than it is that something not caused of its own free will to effect something which actually went wrong, whether we learn those things is not a choice we might never know, it might be a mystery to whoever doesn't know its cause or claim to not know but were affected, but they are not free from it, but to those that are affected and caring enough they might eventually know how if not the why, the how being the correlation in effects the why being the cause and what we ought or ought not do to prevent such in the future is what suicide prevention and the whole point of this thing here we are doing is.

The why would it be rational for them to commit suicide the only logical answer is determined, there is no faith or belief causally linked to suicide is what I am saying, so I think its silly to think people just don't have enough faith in themselves as an explanation is saying nothing causes suicide.

When there is a cause we can know how, if we left things to faith there would be no need for suicide prevention. They were lead by cause and effect to know no other choice, saying otherwise is like saying everyone who is born is not sentenced to death or, everyone who commits suicide is a coward because that's not true.

For example the 13 year old kid was braver than me who is gay and closeted, he didn't come out, but was ousted and retaliated bravely and they killed him, he wasn't a coward but it might have been better for him if he had been a coward, but he could have just suffered from mental illness, not going to go into the semantics of the word freedom and its meaning. I just want to say this if, and only if, the statement you said
You have the freedom to choose what you believe and if you choose to believe in your ability to take control of your destiny, you are more likely to make choices
is true, then would it be, and again I hate to always raise the dead, but when I am not too far from death myself there's no point in me censoring my speech for anything alive, would it be freedom if I would not have control over my own future if I did not "believe" the gay 13 year old that was poor ,did things for money then got ousted and retaliated and was killed, that that has anything to do with me believing I have control, its a fact its actual empirical knowledge , information affecting the system itself, belief is a term that means blind faith, it does not mean anything in the physical world, where there is no faith that controls matter.

My question to you might be how come there is so much information on how we can effectively commit suicide without much probability of failure, if we have control over destiny why can't we stop all the worst suffering from occurring like the young dying, the poor, mentally ill, we should, but we don't because there are finite resources and our lives are finite, if we spent every waking second trying to prevent the worst harm, progress would cease.

And that is not freedom we are pushed by our motifs and they collide with others which cause conflict that is either resolved or it ends up a mystery or an injustice, and those lives can be made worse over lives that aren't dogshit because resources are not a choice neither is what you learn or die knowing as he would control his destiny, and there are humans that don't know who he is but effects their lives and fates as well and they have no choice to belive because, that s like saying you can predict your fate and avoid death, if that is what you got from me saying fate is knwoable let me make it clear, no one can escpae death but just as cancer patient can know they have cancer, from symptoms, they aren't free from suffeirng. the last point, we know lives can be unjustly crushed, but not that life is better than death even though most people "believe it" isn't an argument, because no one has ever come back from the dead to confirm that claim.
This is what is good about talking in the written format is we don't have to be pretentious and talk past each other, we have to deal with the point.
 
#7
Faux, is anyone there with you? Please breathe, breathe, and try to think of one thing at a time. Can you write about the one thing that is bothering you the most right now? Slow breaths, okay? Just the one thing that is uppermost in your mind right now, please.
 

FauxMorale

Active Member
#8
Faux, is anyone there with you? Please breathe, breathe, and try to think of one thing at a time. Can you write about the one thing that is bothering you the most right now? Slow breaths, okay? Just the one thing that is uppermost in your mind right now, please.
I know what I am doing, but I am not ok with doing it, that summarises my life in this world, I know the reply was a little long, no one will really read it, yet as I have the time, it was my motif type it out that way, like anyone receiving gratification from any thesis or paper they do for profit or research, I am doing it because I feel as though its important to ethical standards, ok.

I've hit the sea-floor now, how life got here will still be a mystery to me even after I die, but from what I could know about life, and my symptoms I've hit the point where I am getting nervous breakdowns consistently, once upon a time I heard of the symptoms that degrade into what I am at now, its like I did not heed a warning or did not take the testimonials of total mental breakdown /schizophrenia seriously enough.

Its a constant state of suffering, there's no way a life could be had with this kind of isolation, I can write, but in reality I am bleak, probably terrifying, tried whatever I could menially in the real world but no traction, everything has been bad up to this moment and every theory on quality of life shows that I 'm practically doomed.

I feel the same way since 2 years ago I imagined and scoffed at the idea of the reality that's actually crystalized, every day I just know how shit my life was and however shitter lives that exist that none of the rest of the world will ever blink at.

And there seems to be no to the ignorant nihilistic egoists surrounding everything, barely even aware that their own moral choices are emergent properties of evolution and not subjective, and they are probably fated to die before they ever know competently that morality is objective enough to live an actual life of value in preventing suffering and causing the least harm, its sickening, I just know I will give in soon and try to rewrite to organize my shit so I can then see what next to do, and I don't think it will be good. People just sigh and want to live happy while things suffer and try to plug their ears when you can bring something more than just self-actualization, but the problem of sentient suffering to the table, it is not even worth saying to any in the real world or online, but its still the most important thing in this world right now that not even considered by most in da today progress until tragedy strikes.

Its not like I willingly convinced my self of shutting off all points of getting out, its that my life and the moral logic that I use now tells me that everything has been dogshit and that everything is already too fucked for me to fix I lost any motif from the shit life and my journey into pessimism is going to be my permanent outlook and state of my situation .

Everything I know that makes me, me, is just resisting or projecting no worthwhile future, its not even a fight, survival instinct is just where there's no inner struggle, its like I said cause and effect with colliding information, and no dissonance in knowing motifs are dogshit, I find it moral to seek to end the suffering, and amoral to continue it for nothing worthwhile, those that seek to end animal and human suffering can fill the shoes or the shoes that would of been filled, so its just survival instinct vs rationale now .
 

Lara_C

SF Supporter
#10
I know the reply was a little long, no one will really read it
I read it all, and you make some good points. It would take to much time to reply to them all, but I'm interested in your thoughts on this quote from Muhammed Ali about the power of positive thought :

“I am the greatest. I said that before I knew I was. It’s the repetition of affirmations that leads to belief. And once that belief becomes a deep conviction, things begin to happen.” 
 
#11
I read it all, and you make some good points. It would take to much time to reply to them all, but I'm interested in your thoughts on this quote from Muhammed Ali about the power of positive thought :

“I am the greatest. I said that before I knew I was. It’s the repetition of affirmations that leads to belief. And once that belief becomes a deep conviction, things begin to happen.”
I won't comment on his "Greatness", but the word itself is meaningless to me and I think everyone, its a generational none after his generation really think the same way he does it was just for his times that he can really speak for, which I don't want to snip at people for doing this but the quoting itself doesn't hold meaning , what holds meaning is the conversation we can have about it because the one who made it is dead, and thus we can find meaning in the now from it is what matters and that is why people quote no intrinsic value is in all of those words than just their applicableness to problems in the now, to those affected by them.

Now to praise him, no one will know truly how greatly he suffered for that greatness except him, in the end only in his heart will he know if it was truly worth it all, the people that encouraged him that never lived to see him rise above it all, and that is what people of all ages and walks of life valued in the character is looking back on the story than just the progress, and not obsessing over the results that is not just progress; but also loss, through those ends to which we know how they were justified, which kept him going.

Perhaps if vital people had just given him everything he wanted or vital figures hadn't died he would not have had any motive to go on, to apply those results to those alive in the now than just another statistic, that cannot tangibly accomplish anything as it is not alive, is what most institutions do to you, is accept your resume and social contract to be productive member of society, a silent monotony , then accept your results, no tomfoolery, mocking, inappropriate behavior, the people don't tell them that they aren't the results, because life isn't a test that you pass, as long as you are alive an not depressed they agree life is not a test you pass then they shove you in a locker and or assign you to an easier class, whatever struggle you are in and whether you go on is contingent on those push and pull factors the motifs and losses, loss of regard from community, all the fears that drag people along the hard concrete sidewalk to their destiny.

Whether you write about this and become read or not in the future when making sense of the obselete system to those who went through the same system that claim its fine and its just you the bum that chooses that life, becuase low and dumb is what you become used to, says, the more literate and higher skilled career men and women, we ought to stop complaining about the system, the poor specifally because it makes the bourgeoise, wealthy and rich feel uncomfortable, "Just stop being poor lol", your words are like water on ducks back, to the rich who keep on getting richer, saying anything about it is entitled, ungrateful, lethargic, and disgraceul , good grief, look at the stallions this artifical ranch we call societ y ahs produced and next to the is a crippled pony, that is proof of progress, your personal failures arent undenyable proof that society is a decadent self justified poo, with sweatshops and suicides left and right, but sure, anyone that says anyting is a squeaky wheel that has to be replaced, God forbid the pessimists drive us all offcourse , if we listen to the depressed idiot resposnble enough to take care of themselves let alone unecessary children it didnt have to have, after all we ca n only justify a few deaths and suicides per thousand on this happy bus ride to nowhere, becuse the bad apple can change but everyone has to shut up when anyhting happens ,then bad apples get tother hte hten hte y vow to not snitch, until shit keeps hpapneign prety soon they disappear ten everyone has to keep their lipssealed again, rinse and repeat.

The ones that made it through, they become then providers, eventually the same process occurs enough until a tragedy occurs through enough silence, no matter how much suicide prevention nor counseling or good producers we make this never stops the system gets to as close as perfection but it never seems to achieve it, pretty soon in the modern era a few are going through would hope for death, a quite painless death than a never-ending goal to reach perfection, the middle age just kept on going what achievements have hey no nare perfect, when no one not even the brightest actually know what the fuck that ould look like considering the dig shit that goes through the system unchecked with every generation, go anywhere its the same thing through civilization some only end up seriously fucked, mangled, or harmed mentally to justify the happiness of some fucking morons so they can tell their little ones they are unique, but no one talks about all the unique suffering and new fucked ways people die in this progressing world, its like a movie that keeps adding new characters killing of te old ones you missed and keeps on slowly progressing to the next great catastrophe hits the climax then the producers sell out for better technology to get closer to God destroying nature in the process.

The system was never perfect it was always adapting, but what about our optimism and the future makes us think somehow there won't be suffering in the system in the future, failure is slipping a scrapping your knee, in Ali's case breaking his arm a few times, ask him if he was alive, would he do it again for a nice BMW,considering one bad angle and he'd never be able to box again I think we know the answer.

Its these conversations that everyone does not just you and I that people value that makes their lives, dare I say , more bearable , not just going through the motions of monotonous language, but the resultant knowledge of trying to understand each other results in seeing something that you didn't see before from things you previously knew, that does not involve a criterion made for producing value for the community.

Without ever questioning your loyalty to the community any deeper than that a valuation that eventually means nothing when you everyone put in the same and the next generation has their foot in the door. We question life in and of itself only in times with people when we convey the truth of our reality, those are the moments we remember vividly the most, but we never seek those out they always just seem to arrive at the right time, fate is the only thing that can describe this.

Shortly after a stressful career you remember many of the transactions specifically that went on and eventually those fade more into just remembering those people that affected each other and the logical progression, then just being a number count of bad days or good days, in reality even the least productive life doesn't do this otherwise they'd find more justification to end themselves but only humans do this , this is the only thing I can give you pass on in your statement of positively influencing yourself, but its just a rationalization not to commit suicide into to be productive or optimistic i any sense come up with grandiose fantasies, etc.

On Ali, you make the least bad in your day no matter how anyone perceives you in the now or time before, because they can appreciate the suffering through to the end no matter what kind of being he was that is the true greatness of the human race, valuing him solely on the fact that he was born of a certain kind but what he suffered through in the real world, where the forces of nature are blind and truly blind, unlike people to the actual sentient lives that live and feel, it has no consciousness of its effects to be able to discriminate on what its affecting that can infer the same on want affects it because of any differences.

The stress he had to put others through all along the way he did not do it alone and it wasn't just his greatness many were affected and encouraged him along the way which is my argument about cause and effect, neither am I putting him down for fighting because it was consensual agreement, the point is, through that, his end game was never this abstract concept of greatness, that is the resultant description of his career.

In the end, his opponent had to lose in order for him to be great, his training had to be time-consuming and he probably lost many people to achieve that end goal, cost-benefit analysis, the relationships he lost any time he wishes he could have cherished more than money mattered he can't trade in for the time he lost, nor really claim is not priceless in the end, put on hold because his relationship to the game kept him alive and more motivated, so they let him go on, to live although the risks were much greater, you can refer back to the broken arm analogy, I could go o and on, life is like a film but you are not just watching you are in the movie and the effects are real and the risk and suffering o are more than the good.

People scrutinize through a lens of infinite progress, yes in their optimism they honestly do, they don't care how they got there, where they are going, just like everyone else you should be there, stick to the program, and if not happy be civil, if there's an in-fight between people valuing the short term over the long term and griefing to feel more special than the other it gets squashed, trivialized, then later on is moot.

There is nothing worse than despair you die a thousand times, I even heard it my first time here before I went back out into society, they are silent, like the animal that lives truly in sanctuary, happy because it has no worries about the future neither optimistic nor pessimistic, the human that is pessimistic and gives in is damned to their own suffering no longer do they seek redemption or anyone to care, the humans look on silent than take part, giving up seems purely random they are not guilty, humanity is not guilty.

Just like the animal, they live in the now, they see the future as an optimistic bubble without being able to predict when it will burst, when you burst it you are worse than Hitler, no amount of scolding, but silence would do it injustice, unlike quickly getting over grieving the dead to pursue life you are nothing more than statue to give up on itself grieving itself in the future knowing the long term suffering that awaits, what can answer that, besides agreement as a species with more intelligence than animals , yet with free will we choose to just be optimistic, or be left to suffer, with nothing but the injustice of your shyte community's silence, just as the example of humanity at it's best with Ali , this is it at its worst animals alo sufferwihtout any prediction ofits fate, wehuamns as acollective are optismtic about our fate aloe as indiviuals we suffer are told to be optistm and pregres btu thsoe that suffer alontraginally unliek animals whenwebecoem pessismitic unlikeaniamls that cant predict their fate wecan predict wit evne mroe agony our betrayal and despair wegive in to ourown sufferignand die a thousand times.

Someone that doesn't have the free will to be optimistic and change their fate must have just made the wrong decisions feeling down they deserve it, they are worse than animals, humans the whole lot when they act like this, its like being threatened with the death penalty every time you despair as the world turns their back on you then you realize there is no such thing as Karma, its a bad joke about fate, If you can't see how humans doing this is worst than animals killing each other I can't explain it to you any other way.

The unnatural looks on their faces is despair, its the same thing in the teacher analogy as you see the hope gone from their face, a dominoes and they think as all the of those in the middle, are just dominoes that think they cannot be touched, so when you the squeaky wheel make the noise e they say nothing because you just complain until you get what you want then you shut up, when some tin else looking through the lens decides to sit and have without the effects yo and some negative for my life ends, until that gaze when they all view you as the freak happens again, the Frankenstein, unlike those that died in tragically ,alive you should be grateful if not gracefully politely seek help when in the moment yo feel hopeless no matter what as an outcast, you are Frankenstein, they can't say anything, the infrastructure, nor them, none if it will bet here in a few centuries, until then take in that consciousness.

The reality is that there is no choice just as much as your first language was your own choice, even speech is involuntary, see the guy that lived without saying a word for a year, ask him how he's been, but not free even you have to admit that when you chose that quote than words have power, well where does it come to from it can't be freely given it must come from somewhere?

Ali's accomplishments or trinkets don't matter in the greater scheme wasn't even mentioned with any substance to it in his eulogy. I don't think I am writing this as biography, I am arguing progress is and if we have control over our fate.
 
#13
Not sure I'm following you @FauxMorale. Could you sum up the main points about freedom vs determinism, if you don't mind? Are you saying we have no freedom over the way our lives unfold?
1. The system relies on infinite optimism, to supply an infinite number of sentient beings to suffer and die , if we assume pain is greater than pleasure we would be perpetually trying to justify a net negative.

2. If people could be granted every desire and wish fulfilled, they would have no motivation, motivation comes from a lack of needs met, happy people know they aren't perfect, they go on by, not to reach unattainable perfection in a game that is not worth it, but to survive rather than end their lives.

They move on from "Customer Service", which is a dismal job, to the management role of life, this is like thinking we have free will, and in our youths we blame others and bask in our own credulity that is "Customer Service", we feel betrayed by authority only to realize we had made critical mistakes, once we have enough experience to learn from mistakes we learn skills that deteriorate unless we record or practice them on people, but the rules were not made for us, they are made to keep us safe from each other.

"Management" involves seeing people as they are just dominoes falling to some greater design or objective free will is just enough tact to deal with your own shit cut the slack and make the game happen so your company wins, your customers and competition are just things to serve and if they get in the way you don't naturally want to betray them but you cut them off because they aren't good enough, that they get what they deserve by playing the game of life and if they don't like it they can leave.

This is the hierchia lstrucutre of scoet for msavages to the 1 percent corporate elite n notto mention nepotism a reult ofthe system being an unwelcimng environmentto any that alredy struggled in a time or sffer from loss aversion than happy people , this would justify betrayal if you are in" Customer service" until you rise or realize its just subordination and standrds performing to the highest rank, as soon as you realize it you stop feeling betrayed if it was clearl y mostly your mistake you see it as fiduciary, otheriwse if its by the system or conceit, bias, you become distrustful of anyone and feel more and more isolated, you have a tantrum and they just get back to work, like in the cubicles, its unjust and there is no compenstiaon rather than despair , eventually everyone in the system gets filtered until the creme of the crop are left, the irony is that they had no choice but to move o n, that was their fate i n the system, the road traveled is destiny , they maintain their existence and have pointless hobbies that keep them entertained with addictive and competitive elements where being the best is a shallow and dismal goal accounting for all the suffering they are through, rather than worry , they stay optimistic by sticking to what they know until they can go out and make progress that keeps their essential utilities to distract them from the same communty which they support codependtly.

3. The ones that make it through life to adulthood that aren't mangled by "domesticated animals", or just troubled, if they try to make something of themselves its always more risk than reward, its not just progress through every step they feel the pressure, half the time the stars lose their luster at some point , and even after what could be considered success , wealth, the distribution is uneven and they are plighted with taxes, and loss of their previous glory das is all they have as they now have to find other priorities with less risk involved that they managed to get through without being fatally injured unlike others in their profession, those that aren't injured is due to rules and guideline made those in the past, not through just gusto and positive thought.
 
#14
I would say that we live in the past, not just in a metaphysical sense, but as well as consciously speaking, the present is just your awareness of the moment you are in as the present, no such real present exist, all the good things we do are rooted in understanding the past as well, the idea of not dwelling on it is for cowards, I would make such a bold claim because the reason why we advise is not because we cannot know everything necessary from it taking the useful and secondly we cannot change the past, once gone is gone forever, but we do well to not forget about it, even though we have positive things we try to refrain from vain pride as well of al history we can sum up as bloodshed, disease, and scientific discoveries, otherwise history would repeat itself.
 

Lara_C

SF Supporter
#15
I'm still not sure what you mean, probably because my brain is more foggy than usual today. While I agree there are structural constraints which limit us, this doesn't mean that we are totally determined by the conditions we find ourselves in. Within limits, there is a degree of freedom- the future is not causally determined by the past.

Even in physics, determinism ie causality, is dead - exactly the same conditions can give rise to more than one outcome . While present conditions are the product of the past and form the basis for the future state which emerges, indeterminacy is fundamentally built into the structure of reality. We cannot predict the future with certainty from present conditions and this is not due to our ignorance, but because there is no causal link between past, present and future. Causality is an illusion our minds impose on reality in the process of attempting to comprehend it conceptually, but this conception is false.
 
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Lara_C

SF Supporter
#16
In sum, while the conditions we find ourselves in limit future possibilities, there is always more than one possible alternative outcome from the same starting conditions and even if external conditions are very restrictive and limiting, we can still change internal conditions for the better. Happiness does not totally depend on our external environment - we can change the way we think even when outer conditions seem oppressive, and this often leads us to act in a way that changes outer conditions for the better too.
 
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#17
In sum, while the conditions we find ourselves in limit future possibilities, there is always more than one possible alternative outcome from the same starting conditions and even if external conditions are very restrictive and limiting, we can still change internal conditions for the better. Happiness does not totally depend on our external environment - we can change the way we think even when outer conditions seem oppressive, and this often leads us to act in a way that changes outer conditions for the better too.
Lara...What I mean is this, you are right I think, the future is not causally determined by the past, it is determined by the present, I have been suicidal since my teens, whatever I went through is gone- I get it, I spent days trying to get over the anger alone, the only way I could.

Everything around me suffers from life, I realize no matter where I go there is no refuge, I have found only joy in being alone which gets to me sometimes but there is no other way. I am fundamentally against producing the future, self-actualization, ambition, I see it as nothing more than human pride at the cost of suffering animals and more children brought into progressing world with looming traces of an amoral prejudiced and malignant past.

Getting a life won't cure m depression, going out, and I do nothing basically secluded either, the one thing you can understand about me is there is no me I am like a bug in a rug, I have no right to work, companionship, travel, the least suffering for me is just being nobody, I guess I was just here to realize that better late than neveras if I had any choice.

There's no short cut if I try to become independent, take the step, through the system again, for one and final time, I tried, no more.
1. I lack the internal motivation, no external compensates for this.

I watched a Christopher Hitchens debate recently on free will, he said something that went like this you can pay off someone's debts, even rare occasion serve their sentences, but you can't take another's responsibilities, no one can move on for me.

2. It is futile.
There's a saying that going against your fate is futile, life is like a river, you just go with the course. People get burned alive in their own homes they worked their whole lives to pay for because they didn't check a leaky gas pipe, and then the government sells their property to the lowest bidder, that is life, that's determinism its a mess, a caldron of events, your idea of it is like an immaculate process in which perfect results come about, deriving an is from an ought, I never said that and it doesn't follow my conclusions, it is a net negative, because there can be many outcomes means there is complexity, but in complexity there are very basic systems, of cause and effect, that we do not know the complete origin of or how the atoms move in and out of states l from light to a wave but we know enough to predict with near perfect certainty and that is determinism, that we can find certain causes for matter, just not the subconscious which is why this free will thing is still a mystery of sorts, I can not give you a perfect concept of free will, but I did try to convince you of determinism.

My mind does not independently think on its own when I die and my brain loses consciousness , the laws of the universe don't change, I is basically an illusion, and morals are the natural process that leads to deal with the problem of existence in an uncaring benevolent universe, so that when you say I, you are electing if by cause and effect to not acknowledge the other being from the same system and a state of suffering as your equal and therefore needing to be treated with dignity at the very least care then you electing for your own suffering as we are basically just consciousness and the will to survive, the cost if greater suffering because life has no meaning or purpose beyond survival which is why there is no justification for people burning alive other than just abhorrent fate.
 

Lara_C

SF Supporter
#18
Again, I can't reply to every point you make @FauxMorale , but I don't agree obviously that we are simply the playthings of an unalterable fate, with zero power to determine the way we think or act, or the way our lives unfold. I don't agree that the awareness of our own existence -I am- is an illusion. In fact its the only thing we can be certain of, and is the basis of all our knowledge about other things. We may not know what we are, but we know that we are!

As I said in my first post, believing you are simply an object of external forces, and even that your sense of your own existence is an illusion, is self sabotaging because sets up a self- fulfilling prophecy. If we blame our unhappiness and lack of fufillment on the dictates of irresistible fate, there can be no basis to take charge of ourselves and our lives for the better, but the lack of motivation and power is a consequence of this fatalistic belief system in the first place! It's no surprise that people who don't share these fatalistic beliefs and who believe in themselves and their abilities are more likely to be happy and fulfilled because they are motivated to set goals and work hard to achieve them.

So, imo the main thing I think you need to change is the way you think. This is of course completely up to you, but there could never be any evidence that proves determinism, and there is evidence from physics which actually disproves it: exactly the same starting conditions can produce more than one outcome. This makes the laws of physics descriptions of the way things tend to behave, rather than causal principles which determine what happens.

You are critical of the system, the rat-race, and this is fair enough, but even although we are all constrained in various ways by our environment, this doesn't mean that there is no freedom to manoeuvre whatsoever. Your own values may be at odds with the world you find yourself in, but there is still room for you to find a niche.

You care a lot about animal suffering for instance. Have you thought of ways you could help reduce it? As for your other values, if you knew you couldn't fail, what would you do /be?
 
#19
Long post you can choose not to take on the burden I won't lose respect for you :)

I don't need you to reply to each of my points, just my main argument which you are doing a good enough job on, regardless of what humans think in their daily lives as basically animals, I think what we are doing is what makes us higher animals, this discourse, I have respect for you but must disagree with your argument being some of your premises and conclusion. You will find peace in this soon you find accepting things like transgender children rather than prejudiced and being reluctant or even aversive to these things and in denial of that part of one's own rationality unwilling to see the moral code in that by thinking that is a negative choice than understanding that it is not a choice becomes easier to accept more things along these lines once yo get over the hard reality of yo being what you are as nota choice to accept these things as fate.

I think you are drawing a loose conclusion which is the problem here, and that is not due to your own free will, but its not, I strongly believe the evidence for you not being able to see my conclusion is the fact of your survival instinct, and the more abstract processes that create a net pos overall summation of the world to you, which is your optimism, which explains why you can understand my premises but will not draw the same conclusion due to the evidence from your own inferences on such a broad topic such as free will/determinism.

You find it easier to believe in free will and complete autonomy over your future outcomes, so it takes responsibility away in cause and effect on anyone else's future outcomes maybe?

So everyone's fate can be positive by their own free will, so mistakes and credit is all a product in their own mind and consciousness which is not even a physical or observable property in the material word which might explain why your entire argument rest on the mystery of consciousness, because we can never know what it is you assume there, is free will, and thinking positive rather than external facts in a benevolent world of nature where fate undoubtedly can be a net negative regardless of the mistakes effects of you immediately in the margin of error to safely assume is not analogous to a butterfly causing a windstorm, but realistically peoples effects on others are the fault of none either credit but a long chain of deterministic outcomes?

A kind of a double-edged sword because here you think you are at fault for your mistakes and failures and credit is due in just adhering to a standard, when you feel as though you justly followed your commitment and you're not properly accredited this is entitlement in which case if not resolved when informed to be considered a misunderstanding, then there is betrayal, the young often start with grandiose expectations and affirmations which quickly becomes pessimistic by the reality of the system until they are just merely jaded not humbled by nature but sick of it just surviving for a balance until their fate, ethical in the sense of adhering to a moral standard but not having a perfect past; and tuning into bad news keeps them cashing in those optimism reality-checks.

When you learn from mistakes and failure, you take the credit, when you fail you take the blame, so no one else is to blame, but this also is optimistic in viewing the world as net pos than fate being a net negative, misunderstandings in civil society where we all share credit and blame, being solitary, always results in misunderstandings, because you can't misunderstand yourself.
Misunderstandings not being resolved in following on commitments exhaustion to being burdened to keep up with commitments and people feeling betrayed before its too late, then all that left to be asked is what happened or why with mature people they learn its not worth it and let mistakes occurs that learning does occur at the same rate for all and blame teach than blame others feeling cheated the tolerate and put their eg to the side to rationalize it as others in need of ass than them just being alone can always upkeep te stdrd , and sometimes things go bad, which is why you have solitary people that just abandon all responsibility and the suicidal that is still learning and don't understand the positive ethics of utilitarianism in working within a system and the net neg is a means of deadly fate os they get confused, depressed anxious, which is why socialization is so important to tea more and the group connecting with people is imperative to our species' success.

Yet being alive is still a net negative for the individual that has to bare their suffering g however great alone knowing all the misunderstand learning it was no one fault and growing as being for some learn this at a rate than others and then net neg of the past really makes dreary of the future, of being alive they feel like even the best years of their life were fighting to quickly dissolve misunderstandings in their careers and every aspect of life and fight monsters of the past makes hem dread the next generation on and future which is why the old are the way they are to the young, especially considering the best years of their lives are behind them.

So your fate was unjustly caused at the inception of you being brought into the world, this counters the optimistic view on life being autonomously a net pos whoever win-wins, dying is just a part of life even when animals fight is because of their will to survive knowing their fight would be the last or not-winnable is contingent upon their intelligence and unforeseeable external forces, than pessimistically than life is not the best fate and unjust harms for those in the worst states, disease is not their fault or blame and nothing is to credit, neither is the patient dying a failure of the mntot succumb tot heir illness and slight the Doctor's record to take credit for saving them by their incredible abilities of free will which are just learned techniques that cannot freely save the life of the patient that will inevitably die.

This why people are told to take the blame for their own failures is the same is believing coming into the world is pos and a net pos, that we are not lead to opportunities by cause and effect random chance is not probable that we completely earn everything we have for your genetics, intelligence etc, how to deal with this negative is what makes us better people rather than animals that lack the intelligence and no matter their temperament can be complete assholes because of this but as we do that is why we owe it to hem to always never harm them.

This naive optimism is also the reason why those closest to criminals always try to think of them as innocent even knowing the evidence, why people stay through stuff and why they have an aversion to violence, its not free will, even the smartest criminals admit they were caught not because of any particular genius of the system be\ut because all of the evidence fate was there and their conscience also inevitably lea to them being caught, the other part is that tolerance that people aren't fully in control so that inflicting fatal harm o them for something the did that had a negative effect on you would have to be justified by motifs.

Which is why the death penalty is considered by most to be amoral (search the statistics), and that you could get people to change by free thinking but by logic determinism right information for the past mistakes, netneg, which leads to change otherwise people could free fly to think that doing the right thing is not right choice which defies logic right is only right and once you learn that you can't change 2+2 =4 or else it is wrong.

Lastly on the double-edged sword you can't blame an's future outcomes on your mistakes in effecting them i the past means they were cheated out of a future because of you being solely your fault than the fate of the world and a cause align you io to this having to do with their expectation of reality and the constraints of the environment leading to imperfections even when we improve we prove others wrong that they weren't going to make this future regardless of one;effects which is why people have their own lives but and own responsibilities but still have to coexist a teach others otherwise they would be able to hit that perfect outcome regardless of who makes mistakes the system standard is putting them in check, not you or I which takes the blame and betrayal out and leaves progress separating mistakes from people so there no injustice and bad learners from affecting them if they themselves had not been taught when they made mistakes up to an end.



As you said everything starts with I am, so no matter what I say to you I am fighting through words that you, the only way to come to a pessimistic conclusion is to totally agree that your self-preservation has been defeated by the empirical evidence of net suffering , then also that it is not worth it being internalized, which is basically already a form as you said of self-sabotage as the truth understood from a life of dogshit overriding that optimism drive pos sum thinking than just a moment of dwelling in the past could do, try all of human history, was the recording of that free will too and had they not, would what we call us living now in the 21st century the future even exist regardless of who started writing on rocks.

Those acute even having a real impact as memory as information on the system, would understand the conclusion or at least that knowledge being thrust upon you would lead to the rationalization of suicide and my conclusion against self-preservation in the sense of it mattering over harm, like in a and then I and the knowledge of net pos than confirms that hypothesis, but even after becoming a pessimism and accepting the conclusions for the information suicide is only a ration still to for the point that the life is worth ending at the time and, secondly at it is worth living to prevent a reduce ht net neg har min the world which is the only ration l purpose so that euthanize would possibly be inevitable I those two scenarios, Lara can you guess where I am at?

In a world that always takes pain for pleasure and the pain is always more than the pleasure, there will always be pessimists, life is a defense mechanism inherently because you can always inflict more pain to get pleasure, which is why people defend themselves if not the desire to inflict pain freely but to avoid this pain being inflicted on itself is a rationalization between individuals and species .

I'll admit I get strong feelings when another sentient being is trying to relegate a feeling onto me "optimism" it is psychological, though these are just words and can be absolved of all meaning unless they have some proof or strong conviction behind them worthwhile, like you said its I in the mind, this optimism is inherent to your cognition caused by neurology so much that I can connect what we already know, what you are saying is equally as important to me as it is to you.

I could have gone anywhere but here is where I am, to anyone yet you are down thi s rabbit hole, going across topics essentially trying to convince the other from what we previously learned with opposing viewpoints and why, if you had met me I nreal life yo u would think I was mad, or in the past needed therapy or biegn put in a straigtjacket, yet I am able to have this hoest discourse that for the ultimate hope in some truth, I have not strawmanned you or disrespected you once, thats is due to change form my past self, being more obnoxious and maninupulative to a now mroe sincere, ethical this is despite the fact that I am antisocial, misanthropic and verymuch mentally unstable, because logic tells me otherwise from wrong, from the harm ,ambitions are not bad aslong as they do more good than harm which for most in the system is rather not ture is a balcne htey feel good and bad and the net benefit for those with offspring goes to their legacy in hopes thta they improve the family but most of the profits go to the rich that remind theforece to just keep hard-work it pays off in diminishing reutrns learning the hardway, htat we ar eliek the butter fly working to maintian itself to be in a chrysallys then freed form all of this buden and all of the itpays off but it doesnt, are no good and bad people, with freedom of choice to be blamed I ndesrvign their own misfortune or any credit from learning from mistakes in a compettive system to hold to a standard that is not wroth the worst suffering, human, without praising myself this was not my own free will at all.
 
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#20
Again, I can't reply to every point you make @FauxMoraleYou care a lot about animal suffering for instance. Have you thought of ways you could help reduce it? As for your other values, if you knew you couldn't fail, what would you do /be?
I really just care about ethics, in general, I use animal suffering not to rile emotional responses out but because of it core to my arguments, I don't think I can ever be mentally stable enough to have a full-time career, maybe an animal psychologist or a vet assistant.
 

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