• IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: Please read THIS THREAD about a rebrand for SF.

Do you Think you Deserve to Suffer? Or that People get what they Deserve?

Lady Wolfshead

wishes you well
#1
I just read a few interesting articles on the idea of Meritocracy (I will link them at the bottom of this post). I wanted to talk about it because here on SF I often hear people using language from this ideology ("I deserve to die, My life is worthless, I am a failure.")

Basically a Meritocracy is where people get ahead through their own merits (hard work, accomplishments) rather than through their parents social class, race, connections, health, looks, or just plain luck.

The problem with this idea is that it's just that - an idea. It's what we *wish* were true, because people want to believe in a just world. We want good people to succeed and bad people to fail. And we want it so badly (especially in places like the USA) that we act as if the Meritocracy were real. The article has quotes from both Barak Obama and Donald Trump, who obviously are on opposite sides of the political spectrum, yet both quotes appear to use language of Meritocracy. The reference to a "level playing field" and to people rising from humble roots to achieve great things. And we rarely talk about other factors in success like connections, race, gender, and luck.

Yes, people (especially those in power) LOVE to hold up the example of someone who rose from humble roots to achieve great things. The problem is that this is actually extremely rare which is why the few examples become popular stories. A large number of people end up in the same career as their parents. Most Ivy League students have been groomed since preschool by their wealthy or upper middle class families. Bill Gates may have been a geeky teenager but his father was a prominent lawyer. Many famous actors are also heirs or heiresses. And even among writers and artists, the majority are from the upper middle class or the elite.

Furthermore, a belief in meritocracy has been shown in psychological studies to result in selfishness, and to insensitivity to those in need. Why? Because if the rich and famous get what they deserve, then those in misery also deserve to be there, right? And a belief in meritocracy has been shown to even harm those who do succeed.

Philosophies that contribute to this mindset can include religion, "God only gives us what we can handle. God protects the faithful, God gives us what we deserve." Also New Age "We get what we 'manifest' by positive thinking. Karma (if spoken of as enacted in this life).

And this is what I see on SF. If we are depressed it's our fault. If lonely, we are unworthy of love. If sick, we must somehow deserve it.

TLDR: Life is not fair. You don't deserve to suffer. Genetics, upbringing, health, advantages, connections and yes, luck play HUGE roles in whether we succeed in life. Some people achieve wealth and success through unethical means like preying on others.

Most decent people do the best they can, yet may still end up in misery. Many people have hard or terrible lives due to no fault of their own.

What to take from this? Stop beating yourself up. Stop blaming yourself for your hardships and focus on doing what you can to better your own life. We may not be able to "succeed" by society's standards, but most of us still have a hope of using tools like therapy, social skills training, meditation, medication and the like to give us some peace and help us contribute to ourselves and the world. You're here and responding to others' posts means you are already making a contribution.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://press.princeton.edu/ideas/a-belief-in-meritocracy-is-not-only-false-its-bad-for-you

https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/10/21/20897021/meritocracy-economic-mobility-daniel-markovits
 
Last edited:
#2
This is beautifully written @Lady Wolfshead I do believe however, that when one lives in misery for long enough, it begins to feel like they deserve it regardless of morals and religious values or Meritocracy. I could be totally wrong so don't mind me if that's the case.
 

Lady Wolfshead

wishes you well
#3
This is beautifully written @Lady Wolfshead I do believe however, that when one lives in misery for long enough, it begins to feel like they deserve it regardless of morals and religious values or Meritocracy. I could be totally wrong so don't mind me if that's the case.
Yep it *feels* that way, but that's why I wrote this. It's important to distinguish feeling from facts.

And others will start to judge you as well, not wanting to believe that anyone could have such bad luck without deserving it. They are wrong also.

My husband and I are going through this - we've had an uncanny amount of bad luck and some of our family members (not all) start to grill us about things like our spending habits, even though we spend far less than they do. Bottom line is they blame us so they are not obligated to feel bad for us or help us. They even downplay my husband's physical disability because he seems like a competent person and did a degree, etc.
 
#4
Yep it *feels* that way, but that's why I wrote this. It's important to distinguish feeling from facts.

And others will start to judge you as well, not wanting to believe that anyone could have such bad luck without deserving it. They are wrong also.

My husband and I are going through this - we've had an uncanny amount of bad luck and some of our family members (not all) start to grill us about things like our spending habits, even though we spend far less than they do. Bottom line is they blame us so they are not obligated to feel bad for us or help us. They even downplay my husband's physical disability because he seems like a competent person and did a degree, etc.
But then how would you begin to switch the thought process?
 

Lady Wolfshead

wishes you well
#5
But then how would you begin to switch the thought process?
Well it's not much of a process. Just allow yourself to consider that the bad things that happen (or happened) to you are not your fault. That life is unfair and thus someone's misfortune does not indicate that they deserved it. If you struggle with a lot of negative perceptions about yourself, a cognitive-based therapy like CBT could help.

And if you think something is your fault because you did something wrong or made a bad decision, admit that you did something wrong or made a bad decision BUT that doesn't make you a bad person or mean that you deserve anything out of proportion to what you did. We all act the way we do for many reasons but upbringing, biology and environment play huge roles in our behaviour. We make the best decision we can at the time.

Writing things down is always a great way to process events. I found CBT extremely helpful. I did The Feeling Good Hanbook by Dr. David Burns.

There's also an interactive CBT program/app called Moodgym (I think it's about $30 per year US). Just google if interested. I also watch Therapy in Nutshell on Youtube
 
Last edited:

MAC0

Y.N.W.A
SF Supporter
#6
I dont think everyone gets what they deserve theres too many examples of people getting away with stuff and theres a whole bunch of rich people that get away with stuff not to mention governments

to me its so much more hard for a little get ahead its been almost impossible nowadays

for me if there is an afterlife maybe they get delt with during that
 
#7
Well it's not much of a process. Just allow yourself to consider that the bad things that happen (or happened) to you are not your fault. That life is unfair and thus someone's misfortune does not indicate that they deserved it. If you struggle with a lot of negative perceptions about yourself, a cognitive-based therapy like CBT could help.

And if you think something is your fault because you did something wrong or made a bad decision, admit that you did something wrong or made a bad decision BUT that doesn't make you a bad person or mean that you deserve anything out of proportion to what you did. We all act the way we do for many reasons but upbringing, biology and environment play huge roles in our behaviour. We make the best decision we can at the time.

Writing things down is always a great way to process events. I found CBT extremely helpful. I did The Feeling Good Hanbook by Dr. David Burns.

There's also an interactive CBT program/app called Moodgym (I think it's about $30 per year US). Just google if interested. I also watch Therapy in Nutshell on Youtube
That makes a lot more sense. I have a stupid 14yr old brain so sometimes need things broken down more.
 

8ght

Well-Known Member
#10
I think everyone deserve a second or third chance or maybe fifth change (but not ten chances) and everyone has room for improvement for me personally I did some ALOT of stupid things in life (and I still fuck up know and then right now to) and I suffered from it dearly and I deserve it, Of coarse I need to learn from those mistakes to be better person. I think people who have "it all" and got what they got thorough unethical means aren't really happy they probably have lots of guilt but of coarse they have so much power, money, etc, it distracts that person of the guilt which then turns them evil and it starts going downhill from there, I honestly think those people are suffering a lot (but it's in the closet).
 

Road to Nowhere

💫💫💫💫💫
SF Supporter
#11
I have always treated others the way I would like to be treated. Any mistakes I have made in life I have paid for them and then some. I have learned important life lessons most of them the hard way. Dealing with all different kinds of people from family or friends, who come into your life only to make it difficult from I learned valuable life lessons. Most good people don't get what they deserve in this life. And certainly, governments and evil in all its forms do not get what it deserves nor is right or just.
 
Last edited:
#12
Thinking more about the whole "just world" - I watched a YouTube video with a creator I quite enjoy who is a devout Christian, although her content is mostly unrelated to her faith. I've been watching her for years and even though I would describe myself as a moderate/agnostic Christian, her strong expression of her beliefs doesn't bother me because she isn't pushy. But her comments section really left me feeling gobsmacked. Everyone commenting was apparently a born again or evangelical Christian and many of the comments indicated belief in a just world and that they are members of an elite class of people beloved and protected and guided personally by God and Jesus. and they will be rewarded with a good life. To me these are grandiose ideas and the opposite of humility.

I must explain that I grew up Catholic. I have certainly ranted about the Catholic church's actions throughout history and in the modern day. But I have to admit that one thing most Catholics get right is the promotion of compassion for the poor and suffering. I never grew up with the idea that I had a "personal" relationship with Jesus, that I was protected from harm or that I was going to have a privileged life or automatically get into Heaven without doing any good deeds. Yet this is apparently what many Christians and many American Christians think. It just floors me. I've heard evangelical preachers say that if you are poor, believe in God and you will get money.

I find it absolutely repugnant when people say their good fortune, especially monetary good fortune like possessions, was given to them by God or Karma or hard work. Because a lot of people work hard, believe in God and end up broke. And you are basically implying those people didn't work hard enough or believe enough. And although I talk a lot about financial struggles (we are "mortgage poor"), my net worth is far from zero. And yes I am thankful but that's different from implying I deserve it and someone else doesn't. A lot of it is luck. I got into a unionized job in my early 30s and hopefully will soon be able to retire early.

I guess I'm saying that I think humility should be one of the goals of any decent person, and humility is the opposite of belief in a just world. We simply don't know. We must give others the benefit of the doubt, always. It always seemed to me that if there was one thing Jesus said more clearly than anything else, it was do not judge others, or you will be judged accordingly. Am I wrong?
 

MAC0

Y.N.W.A
SF Supporter
#13
I find it absolutely repugnant when people say their good fortune, especially monetary good fortune like possessions, was given to them by God or Karma or hard work.

Is there not a stat some where that 90 something % of the riches families wealth has been building for centuries and most of them are really only luck to have been born into the family also nowadays the world is fixed it used to be that the rich owned something near 60 to 70% of all the money since the early 2000s that has grown and they now control something like 92% of all money and governments still make policy to let them keep more and more

I just think I had to wait on a waiting list for therapy and my surgery and the massive post lockdown back log in the NHS if we had a fairer tax system we could eliminate all those issues

sorry to go all Burnie on everyone lol

on the Jesus stuff I tend to stay out of that as I dont believe it anymore but if you read what he said and look at the world and capitalism you tell me would he embrace the world the way it is I dont think so
 
#14
@MAC0 - I will have to look up those figures but they sound right. I know that (in my original post), I discovered there is literal proof the world is not a meritocracy and that is explained in the articles I referenced. I've watched a bunch of documentaries (most on Netflix) about how poor and middle-class people (the vast majority) are tricked by the elite into supporting the political goals of the super wealthy (low taxes etc). I remember watching Michael Moore's "Capitalism: A love story." and I almost didn't watch because I thought I knew what the content would be, but it shocked me. And even in my early 20s I was concerned about corporatism.

I certainly don't speak for Jesus but he seemed to support the common people rather than the elites. There's a difference between democracy and capitalism. Canada is certainly a democracy but we have socialized medicine. There are also programs in most provinces so that children up to age 18 whose parents don't have coverage get dental care, eyeglasses and other supports. I feel bad for Americans because there isn't even automatic medical coverage for children.
 

Acy

Mama Bear - TLC, Common Sense
Admin
SF Supporter
#15
Do you Think you Deserve to Suffer? Or that People get what they Deserve?

The word “deserve” is getting me stuck. Deserve implies a moral reason for something. Some people do bad things that cause great harm to others. Other people do everything they can to help others. But both sides can suffer…illness, loss, and so on.

If a bad person is caught doing bad things and is punished for them (suffers) then maybe they deserve to suffer. But if there is deserving to suffer, what about the good person who does not get a reward that makes their life easier?

I think the bottom line is that life is not fair...although we so often “feel” it is supposed to be. People could make others’ lives more equitable and equal if we all — ALL — agreed to give enough so that everyone had enough and was more than comfortable in life. However, that would not eliminate all suffering — illness, death of loved ones, loss — those would still cause suffering.
 

MAC0

Y.N.W.A
SF Supporter
#16
@MAC0 - I will have to look up those figures but they sound right. I know that (in my original post), I discovered there is literal proof the world is not a meritocracy and that is explained in the articles I referenced. I've watched a bunch of documentaries (most on Netflix) about how poor and middle-class people (the vast majority) are tricked by the elite into supporting the political goals of the super wealthy (low taxes etc). I remember watching Michael Moore's "Capitalism: A love story." and I almost didn't watch because I thought I knew what the content would be, but it shocked me. And even in my early 20s I was concerned about corporatism.

I certainly don't speak for Jesus but he seemed to support the common people rather than the elites. There's a difference between democracy and capitalism. Canada is certainly a democracy but we have socialized medicine. There are also programs in most provinces so that children up to age 18 whose parents don't have coverage get dental care, eyeglasses and other supports. I feel bad for Americans because there isn't even automatic medical coverage for children.
My bad I felt you were an American sorry about that I will say where I am its getting more and more like America we even had are silly looking blonde in power here who left disgraced but the best that shows its not a fair world is the election to bring in a new leader of the party who will also become pm but get this its voted for by party members a few million people will elect someone as leader of the UK while the majority get zero say those people sure dont represent me

also as I have found here free healthcare is in real trouble here cannot get a doctors appointment unless its over the phone there's massive waiting lists for ever NHS treatment which scares me I have my surgery appointment coming up but I fear they will say this is the plan but you have to wait a year

but being fair I don't even think we are doing capitalism now its been so perverted to the point as Gordon Gekko said in wall street Greed is good that's the way nowaday
 

Dante

Life-long ponderer.. and Git.
SF Pro
SF Supporter
#17
On a general level, I dont think people deserve to suffer, except perhaps as much as they have wilfully made others suffer, though I think some suffering is necessary to temper humility and compassion. I also unequivocally believe we don't get what we deserve, usually the opposite.

On a more personal level... I generally think that I do deserve to suffer, but that perhaps after 13 years of depression that should count as "time served". Only very occasionally do I still feel like I deserve to suffer more, every now and then like a realisation moment I see myself as something small and useless and wretched and cant help but feel I should be suffering more. And in all ways, I dont think I have gotten what I deserve, Some things are less than I deserve, and some more recent developments are oh so much more. In the end I think it all, almost, balances out.
 
#18
Do you Think you Deserve to Suffer? Or that People get what they Deserve?

The word “deserve” is getting me stuck. Deserve implies a moral reason for something. Some people do bad things that cause great harm to others. Other people do everything they can to help others. But both sides can suffer…illness, loss, and so on.

If a bad person is caught doing bad things and is punished for them (suffers) then maybe they deserve to suffer. But if there is deserving to suffer, what about the good person who does not get a reward that makes their life easier?

I think the bottom line is that life is not fair...although we so often “feel” it is supposed to be. People could make others’ lives more equitable and equal if we all — ALL — agreed to give enough so that everyone had enough and was more than comfortable in life. However, that would not eliminate all suffering — illness, death of loved ones, loss — those would still cause suffering.
Yes that was the point. A belief in meritocracy leads one to believe that those who succeed deserve it, and conversely that those who suffer deserve it. A just world. We don't live in a just world, but I often hear members of this forum say they deserve to suffer, that God is making them suffer, or that they have failed thus they deserve failure or suffering. And yet those same members probably wouldn't apply that thinking to another person who is suffering. I am pointing out how the belief in a just world (which may even subconsciously affect people who don't overtly believe in one) is destructive.
 

Nick

☆☆Admin-tastic ☆☆
SF Artist
Staff Alumni
SF Supporter
#19
I apologize, I know you posted this awhile ago but I've just now seen it and it piqued my interest enough I had to rc

Do you Think you Deserve to Suffer? Or that People get what they Deserve?
There is something in my brain that believes what I deserve and what the rest of the world deserves are not the same thing. Interestingly I also do not believe I am unique or powerful or somehow above or below the rest of the world's population, but I'm disillusioned to some extend to hold myself to different set of standards and beliefs. For myself I absolutely believe I deserve to suffer for mistakes I've made, for my failure to live up to my own expectations of how I should live (not how other people should live). I take the bad things that happen to me, and I view them as some sort of deserved punishment for my failures in life.

My view of the world at large? I strongly believe that hard work doesn't necessarily produce success. A person can work hard their whole life and still be right where they started, or even worse off. If you start at the bottom hard work is often required to gain any success, but your hard work doesn't guarantee anything. If you start at the top success is given and doesn't need to be earned. You can loose that success by life circumstance or any number of things, even if you start at the top, but there is no work required to earn it at the start.

If karma worked my abusers wouldn't be successful. It's really as simple as that. The corrupt and bad people of the world wouldn't have power and the good and pure of the world would. In reality the good and pure tend to have to work much harder for things because they aren't taking any shortcuts and stepping on others to get there.

I feel like I typed this out a bit jumbled, but maybe someone can make some sense of that brain dump.
 

Waves

Well-Known Member
#20
Hi Lady

I read your first post. Well conceptualized and written. You are right America is full of brainwashing to keep the wealthy rich and the poor down. Because you can’t be rich if no one beneath you. I am angry and tired of these remarks about work hard and you can be successful. I did that for 45 years. What I saw was good old boy network helping each other, women selling out to move up, careers destroyed by narcissistic bosses. . . Then there are preachers and motivational speakers that make money off tapes books and conventions to give people hope. In the end . . . Spouses keep each other afloat. And families. If you have them. Please everyone do not pass judgment on those struggling without. It was not their fault necessarily. Thank you for showing the light Lady.
 

Please Donate to Help Keep SF Running

Total amount
$130.00
Goal
$255.00
Top