When my rights and your rights conflict

[BarryW]

I have a neighbor. They are very religious. I know this because multiple times a day, every day, they spend 30 mins to an hour straight praying out loud in a very loud voice, naming specific religious figures, clapping many times, and repeating specific phrases. This happens not only during the middle of the day when I could be working from home or relaxing, but also at night when I'm asleep or trying to fall asleep.

I'm trying to be vague about what the person is saying, because this isn't about singling out any particular religion. I understand that they have a right to worship how they see fit. But I also have a right to not have someone yelling and clapping for an hour while I'm trying to sleep during the time that 90% of people are asleep in this area. Or I thought I did. Yes, my community has official 'quiet hours'.

I am not an expert on every religion nor do I want to be. For all I know, their religion commands them to do exactly what they are doing at those times of day and they are doing a good job of it. I do know there are some religions that specify prayer times or counts. Really I don't care what my neighbors do as long as they do not make so much noise.

I am afraid to bring this up to my neighbor or management because as soon as I am telling them what to do, suddenly this could be interpreted as me oppressing their religion. Plus I am bad at confronting people in general. Historically I've been very scared to do so.

What are your thoughts on the best course of action when 'rights' clash? If you have a story where you worked out an issue with a neighbor, I'm all ears...

 

[seabird]

It's really helpful when beginning to tease out solutions for sticky problems like yours, to do what you have already done here, that is write out exactly how the situation affects you, and how you feel about rights, etc.

I've always been scared of confrontation too @BarryW . Over the years I've come to a sort of best possible path for me, with these eggshell scenarios. It's to say something without putting it off too long, and to communicate sincerely and patiently. In this case your task is to take it to manaagement, as that is officially management's job.

Do make sure you have prepared a script, or present it to them in writing, very short, but absolutely including very succintly that you do not want to come across as critical or impinging on their religious rights.

If you have been kept awake by them it's likely others have too, which means that management must at some point be made aware.

Also - buy a large packet of good earplugs for the meantime?

Sorry that you're suffering with this, getting good sleep is imperative for my mental health. Without it I quickly go off the rails.

 

[Survivorist]

We had a case like this in the past - parties until 0300 in the morning above us. We said nothing - and suffered. Then we worked with earplugs. Then we moved out. But one thing is clear: Noise is noise - whatever it is.... But are there not more people concerned in the house? Or is it just you? Don't you have meetings where you discuss?

I would talk to them - friendly, not mentioning anything about religion - but the fact that the noise is sometimes (especially at nighttime) too loud - as you work online. Let's see what they say. For you - read 1 Kings 18....

 

[BarryW]

Thanks for the comments. Now they are blasting a religious TV program. Last time they did this it lasted at least an hour. Going on a long walk outside because I'm not going to sit through this again.

 

[BarryW]

Back from the walk and only caught the remaining 5 mins of TV. But now it's prayer time! oh boy..
Although it wasn't my plan, when starting my walk I ended up walking by all the units on the floor below me. Pretty certain which unit is the one making this noise, since I easily heard the same TV program from outside their door.
I appreciate you sharing seabird about your fear of confrontations as well.
Survivorist, I live alone.

I keep hoping someone else will complain because statistically they almost have to be braver than me when it comes to confrontations. But my years of apartment life simply show that people who are loud, are just going to be loud, and nobody can or will stop them. Whether it's the locked-up dog barking for hours, the music blasting from the shower while they are in there, the parties at 3 o clock, yelling at their partner every weekend who tells them to get the <self-edit: sharp kitchen tool> out of their face.

 

[SamB]

Maybe you should see what other people think? If you know where the noise is coming from then you should be able to determine who else might be affected. Knock on one of those doors and introduce yourself and say you have been disturbed by the noise and you were going to ask them to reduce it. They will then tell you it’s not them and either that they too are also disturbed by it or that it doesn’t bother them. You will either find an ally or that you are being overly sensitive.

 

[BarryW]

That is a good strategy, but I don't think I am brave enough. Probably I waited too long to meet neighbors or say something without it being weird. I'll try to remember that for wherever I live next.

 

[SamB]

Those neighbours have not come to meet you either so there isn’t such a thing as you waiting too long. You’ll probably find that other people are experiencing the same thing as you, being annoyed but not knowing what to do, unable to talk to their neighbours because they ‘left it too long’.

 

[So so tired]

Hi @BarryW

This is a very frustrating position to be in.
I've recently had new neighbours after several years without and its been a culture shock!

There are several issues, I don't like them bc of their lack of respect and sense of entitlement they seem to hold.
They do have children and whilst I appreciate that children can be loud, I don't expect to hear them all day and into the night. It sounds extreme, but I feel like my personal space has been invaded.

I have and will consider taking to them soon bc I think its probably better to address any problem earlier rather than later when I am reasonable, calm and level headed.
The longer we leave things the more irritated and annoyed we become and that will not be conducive to a positive outcome.

I think we both have neighbours that show little respect. It's a shame that we have to go out of our way to resolve these things bc it can be stressful.
When speaking to our neighbours, it doesn't need to be confrontational but we need to be assertive.
I wish you luck.

 

[BarryW]

@SamB you are absolutely right. Thanks for the positivity.

I feel like my personal space has been invaded

At more than one place I have lived, I have also felt like my own place is not my own anymore. Even though I am paying more than I would like for rent, I am not in control of what I hear in my own unit. It feels like my place has been taken over. Probably doesn't help that apt complexes pretend that soundproofing technology doesn't exist. "1 millimeter wall width, made of papier mache? Perfect!" they seem to say. Then they pretend like noise complaints are not their issue and encourage residents to go straight to the police. That certainly won't invite any retaliation from the reported neighbor.. nope..

 

[BarryW]

Today I am researching jammer technology. apparently you can buy a personal RF jammer with various ranges and it can block all sorts of things like wifi, 3/4/5G, and more. Wouldn't it be interesting if I set one up to start jamming at midnight, point it to the offending neighbor(s), and suddenly their tv/music didn't work at stupid o clock anymore.

 

[So so tired]

Today I am researching jammer technology. apparently you can buy a personal RF jammer with various ranges and it can block all sorts of things like wifi, 3/4/5G, and more. Wouldn't it be interesting if I set one up to start jamming at midnight, point it to the offending neighbor(s), and suddenly their tv/music didn't work at stupid o clock anymore.

I guess encouragement here would be wrong but that would be funny.

I live in a terrace house and my back door opens onto a small paved back yard, my neighbours house is the same but he always has his back door open so I can hear his kids shouting from any area of my house and enjoying my outside space is an impossibility now.
One day I had enough so put my music on full blast playing it through my speaker right next to my back door, - he soon shut his door!!
Maybe hard house was not his cup of tea - shame!
Perhaps a little childish of me but he should be more respectful.

 

[BarryW]

I've definitely been tempted to out-loud a neighbor to send a message, but with my luck suddenly I would be the one being reported by everyone.. that's funny you did that.

thanks for almost encouraging me but stopping short because you want me to not get me in trouble. It seems like the jammers might not be legal in the US at this time, unfortunately. So much for that idea. Something to keep an eye out for in case the law changes.

 

[Aurelia]

You don't have to tell me, but I'm just wondering are they worshipping God in this way or some other diety/entity? As for what to do, I would first ask you whether you ever talk to these people about anything at all? Like, just to say hi, how are you once in a while type of thing? If you do, and you have built some sort of relationship with them, then simply come to them and ask them to keep it down a bit, just ideally not in those words, but more politely. However you think is best to say it. I wouldn't go to management unless they refuse to listen to you at all and continue making a lot of noise or you feel like you just can't approach them at all because its awkward and you dont know these people. Don't mention anything about their religion or about praying when you ask, just ask to keep down the noise level. Then you won't be discriminating.

 

[Aurelia]

Maybe you should see what other people think? If you know where the noise is coming from then you should be able to determine who else might be affected. Knock on one of those doors and introduce yourself and say you have been disturbed by the noise and you were going to ask them to reduce it. They will then tell you it’s not them and either that they too are also disturbed by it or that it doesn’t bother them. You will either find an ally or that you are being overly sensitive.

This is also a good approach that I like. This way, the complaints won't be coming directly from you if you feel uncomfortable doing so. But then, who knows whether these other people will try to do anything about it or not? You can hope that they will, of course.

 

[BarryW]

@Aurelia I don't think I have met this neighbor. Since this type of noise started a couple months ago, that's probably when they moved in. 'God' is not a word I have heard them say. It is possible the specific religious figure they are mentioning is their 'God', but I make no assumptions.

 

[Innocent Forever]

They have a right to pray and connect however they see fit. They don't have a right to disruption your peace. So the way to meet both rights would be for them to be quieter. I've never come across a belief system that would tell one to tell loud enough for strangers to hear. Most belief systems will say to respect others. But what do I know....

 

[BarryW]

Thanks for your thoughts. Earlier this week I was woken up after midnight (again). I was so upset I was the closest I've been to just yelling out loud and banging our shared wall, but that's sinking to their level. Took me about 45 minutes to go back to sleep after the noise stopped.
For completely separate reasons, I am moving next month. So it's about to be not my problem anymore.

 

[seabird]

@BarryW that is good you are moving away from the noisy prayers. I hope your move brings you to a better and quieter place that soon feels like home.

 

[BarryW]

Today they replaced the clapping with pounding the hell out of something solid (a wall? a table? I don't know). It's about 3 times as loud as the clapping. Clapping is probably the wrong word too. This is not "happy birthday" clapping. It's "smack your hands together as hard as humanly possible without breaking any bones" clapping.
We'll see if they alternate between the clapping and pounding in the weeks to come. Or maybe they will invite a friend over so they can form a whole band! you do the clapping, you do the pounding, I'll get out a triangle..
At this point all I can think is they are so dumb they have no idea that anyone else would possibly hear them.