Would you rather have the shallow attention of millions, or the deep intimacy of one?
- Thread starter Asdlax
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i hope you do find some friends.. there are lots of decent people here.. although as i said before most of them are too nice.. more like too worried to be too direct or to come on too strong.. but i guess once in a while you need someone that.. let's just say.. not too nice.. in a sense that he/she can tell you directly the things that you need to change even if that means that you can be hurt in the process..
I do know where you're coming from and understand the gist of your message. To answer the question of the thread.... "Intimacy of one". To delve deeper into the subject, in what context of the shallowness are you referring to? The people here? Society? Social institutions? I'm going to assume you meant that as a generalisation. But, I would argue that society has an endless depth of shallowness in itself. I think the vast majority of people in it are disconnected from each other and live in their own bubble to truly care for each other to develop proper rapport; and that's no surprise considering the state of the economy and all the slew of incoming global problems forthcoming. Before I digress, I'll try to diverge my statements of society (the real world.) with people here. Societies are full of diverse people (personality-wise), however we all adapt to our environment and unique situations. Everyone here is part of a society. The benefits of the internet is that you can find people in similar situations to yourself, in which I would assume the majority of people here had or are suffering from suicidal thoughts. So, each of us do have that as a commonality. HOWEVER, each of us also possess our individual personality traits and situations.
Using myself as an example, if anyone was suffering from loneliness or social anxiety ; I can relate indefinitely and give a more tailored and practical solution to the problem. However, when it comes to substance or alcohol abuse.... I can not relate at all, there would be nothing I can do but try to empathise and come up with a more generalised solution. I personally don't define that as shallowness, as much as situational ignorance. In either situation: the advisee can either accept or reject my solutions. As you have also stated, only they can choose to incorporate any solutions to their problems and amend their own issues. I think deep down, everyone here realises this; a lot of people here just need to vent or seek the closest available support that is not present "in the real world". That is what this platform is designed for. It's a double-edged sword. On one hand, it provides anonymity and the absence of body language, eye contact, voice tone etc. On the other hand, that is also its downfall, it is also just as easy to take words the wrong way and label them as either genuine or ingenuous (sarcasm is very hard to pull off on the internet compared to real life, as an example.) I disagree with you and some other posters here on one aspect. I believe and I say this with an ounce of uncertainty,based on mine and other experiences, that it is impossible to develop a TRUE and everlasting friendship online (with the exception that both parties meet in the real world.) There are numerous reasons for this, the most prominent ones is availability of the person in the virtual world (time zones, real life etc.) and the lack of communication devices that can only be found outside of technology. We are essentially only communicating with words and yes, I understand you can skype and voice chat and whatever... but still that is not an accurate representation of the person, due to the anonymity that it offers. People can expose what they want to show to you and not the full picture of their life. I also understand people do that in real life, but I believe you can possess much greater information on them than in the virtual world, there are more cues and signals available to you that can't be obtained in the virtual world.
I'm going to backpedal to my perspective on society. Have you heard of the phrase "nice guys finish last."? I do think it has a large degree of truth to it. Instead of guys, I would substitute "guys" with "people". The vast majority of people in society view nice people as weak and timid as "doormats" so to speak. It's being "assertive and aggressive" that's valued in most people's mind, not kindness and empathy. People as a collective are inherently selfish and our societal values reflect that and I arrogantly stand by that proposition as a fact. I've been on and off from this site, but from my little experiences on here. The people on this site have been amazing and have offered great insight. I have never viewed anyone on here as shallow, by any stretch of the imagination, ESPECIALLY compared to my interactions with everyday people in real life and their pointless and banal chit chat. Most people in society, from my experience , literally wants to push you to your lowest depths of self-esteem. Either I'm unlucky or that's the harsh truth. People on here are a FRESH and WELCOMING change, even those who offer generalised advice and wishes people "to get better soon" or "to keep going".... how many people in society actually do that? Or how many people in society would you feel comfortable and trust in telling them that you feel suicidal? I don't see comments like that as shallow at all, generic but said with good and GENUINE INTENT. Considering we are talking in a support forum, I think that's the best you can ask for and it's what I've received and am grateful for that. In addition, I am also perplexed as to why being "too nice" is seen as unfavourable? Speaking for myself, if I felt people were actually genuine and nice, I wouldn't cynically feel that most people out in the real world are idiots, though my rationality and logical thought process tells me they are just ignorant. Overall, I disagree that people are shallow here and I don't view "being too nice" as something to shun. Going out today, I've amassed a massive amount of hatred and rage at just seeing how people act and talk. Coming on here and seeing people attempt to empathise and try to be friendly to others is a most welcoming juxtaposition.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I hope my response will suffice. Thanks for the very thought provoking thread.
Using myself as an example, if anyone was suffering from loneliness or social anxiety ; I can relate indefinitely and give a more tailored and practical solution to the problem. However, when it comes to substance or alcohol abuse.... I can not relate at all, there would be nothing I can do but try to empathise and come up with a more generalised solution. I personally don't define that as shallowness, as much as situational ignorance. In either situation: the advisee can either accept or reject my solutions. As you have also stated, only they can choose to incorporate any solutions to their problems and amend their own issues. I think deep down, everyone here realises this; a lot of people here just need to vent or seek the closest available support that is not present "in the real world". That is what this platform is designed for. It's a double-edged sword. On one hand, it provides anonymity and the absence of body language, eye contact, voice tone etc. On the other hand, that is also its downfall, it is also just as easy to take words the wrong way and label them as either genuine or ingenuous (sarcasm is very hard to pull off on the internet compared to real life, as an example.) I disagree with you and some other posters here on one aspect. I believe and I say this with an ounce of uncertainty,based on mine and other experiences, that it is impossible to develop a TRUE and everlasting friendship online (with the exception that both parties meet in the real world.) There are numerous reasons for this, the most prominent ones is availability of the person in the virtual world (time zones, real life etc.) and the lack of communication devices that can only be found outside of technology. We are essentially only communicating with words and yes, I understand you can skype and voice chat and whatever... but still that is not an accurate representation of the person, due to the anonymity that it offers. People can expose what they want to show to you and not the full picture of their life. I also understand people do that in real life, but I believe you can possess much greater information on them than in the virtual world, there are more cues and signals available to you that can't be obtained in the virtual world.
I'm going to backpedal to my perspective on society. Have you heard of the phrase "nice guys finish last."? I do think it has a large degree of truth to it. Instead of guys, I would substitute "guys" with "people". The vast majority of people in society view nice people as weak and timid as "doormats" so to speak. It's being "assertive and aggressive" that's valued in most people's mind, not kindness and empathy. People as a collective are inherently selfish and our societal values reflect that and I arrogantly stand by that proposition as a fact. I've been on and off from this site, but from my little experiences on here. The people on this site have been amazing and have offered great insight. I have never viewed anyone on here as shallow, by any stretch of the imagination, ESPECIALLY compared to my interactions with everyday people in real life and their pointless and banal chit chat. Most people in society, from my experience , literally wants to push you to your lowest depths of self-esteem. Either I'm unlucky or that's the harsh truth. People on here are a FRESH and WELCOMING change, even those who offer generalised advice and wishes people "to get better soon" or "to keep going".... how many people in society actually do that? Or how many people in society would you feel comfortable and trust in telling them that you feel suicidal? I don't see comments like that as shallow at all, generic but said with good and GENUINE INTENT. Considering we are talking in a support forum, I think that's the best you can ask for and it's what I've received and am grateful for that. In addition, I am also perplexed as to why being "too nice" is seen as unfavourable? Speaking for myself, if I felt people were actually genuine and nice, I wouldn't cynically feel that most people out in the real world are idiots, though my rationality and logical thought process tells me they are just ignorant. Overall, I disagree that people are shallow here and I don't view "being too nice" as something to shun. Going out today, I've amassed a massive amount of hatred and rage at just seeing how people act and talk. Coming on here and seeing people attempt to empathise and try to be friendly to others is a most welcoming juxtaposition.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I hope my response will suffice. Thanks for the very thought provoking thread.
Aye. I'm totally that friend who will tell you that you smell bad if you do. Or if you have anything stuck between your teeth. Better that than public embarrassment imo. Better be told a brutal truth than be ignorant all your life. Better be broken and learn to accept reality than live a lie. Better hear my loved one died than made to wait forever and wonder. False hopes corrupt the soul. I'm glad that everyone could see the point of my thread. I hope all of us are able to pick up something out of it. 
I never said shallow people. I said shallow RELATIONSHIP.
Would you go severely depressed if learn one of the people on here who you have only interacted with ONCE on a thread, died? Be honest, you wouldn't. That's because you don't share a deep bond.
I feel like you're missing a lot of my points.
And you're wrong. My best friend (meet him off this site) he lives 9000miles away from me. Clearly we have different timezones. Heck we never webcammed. We simply talk via text. Everyday. Photos and voicenotes every now and then. Are you suggesting that we don't have a strong friendship? Internet relationship has its own PROS and CONS just like real life relationship. People will always show only what they want to show be that online or offline. Does it depend on the media used as means to communicate? No. It depends on the individual. Are you honest? Or are you not? Are you fake? Or are you real? It has nothing to do with how or where you meet.
Did I ever shun "being too nice"? I only said Why stop at being FRIENDLY STRANGERS? If you can be FRIENDS?
Being nice is good if you are also being authentic. But if you had to be nice at the cost of authenticity, forget about it. Do I shun "being too nice"? I simply disagree with inauthenticity because there is nothing more important to be than to be authentic.
I would appreciate it if you would stop with the false acussations. Nothing hurts like being misunderstood.
Would you go severely depressed if learn one of the people on here who you have only interacted with ONCE on a thread, died? Be honest, you wouldn't. That's because you don't share a deep bond.
I feel like you're missing a lot of my points.
And you're wrong. My best friend (meet him off this site) he lives 9000miles away from me. Clearly we have different timezones. Heck we never webcammed. We simply talk via text. Everyday. Photos and voicenotes every now and then. Are you suggesting that we don't have a strong friendship? Internet relationship has its own PROS and CONS just like real life relationship. People will always show only what they want to show be that online or offline. Does it depend on the media used as means to communicate? No. It depends on the individual. Are you honest? Or are you not? Are you fake? Or are you real? It has nothing to do with how or where you meet.
Did I ever shun "being too nice"? I only said Why stop at being FRIENDLY STRANGERS? If you can be FRIENDS?
Being nice is good if you are also being authentic. But if you had to be nice at the cost of authenticity, forget about it. Do I shun "being too nice"? I simply disagree with inauthenticity because there is nothing more important to be than to be authentic.
I would appreciate it if you would stop with the false acussations. Nothing hurts like being misunderstood.
I wasn't just replying to you, I was replying to all the other posters as well. I believe you just misinterpreted my post and intentions. I didn't accuse you of anything? I was simply offering my honest insight, that you and a lot of posters here have proclaimed they appreciated. It was not my intent to accuse or blame you, that is all you need to realise. Yes, I did disagree with some of your points, did I do so in a way that insulted you? I would like to know why you felt that way from my post. I wasn't sure with a lot of your points that's why I asked you those questions in the beginning. As for your viewpoints on a virtual friend, did you skip the part where I clearly said: "I disagree with you and some other posters here on one aspect. I believe and I say this with an ounce of uncertainty,based on mine and other experiences,"? It was from MY experiences and from what I've heard from others, not yours. If that is the case for you, good for you, I am genuinely happy for you. No, I did understand the gist of your post, there were just certain aspects I was unsure of that you were referring to. I'll just say now that I don't want any conflict, where there was none to begin with.
.... you clearly misunderstood my whole thread. And I cannot make you see it. But all of the things you said areconsiderably irrelevant to the message of my post. Okay so you said that you see where I am coming from but you also disagree about some points. Alright, you know what? You don't have to but, what exactly about my thread, did you disagree? Based on your comment: That I shouldn't shun "being too nice"? Which I didn't. In fact NONE of us did. That I should appreciate people that tried to empathise? Which I have said in my original post, I do. We all do. Or that there cannot be true friendships on the internet? Well you are wrong and that is insulting. Because a lot of us have found the realest people over the internet. As if there can be anything else you disagreed, these are the things you wrote on your feedback. You think I misunderstood. But that is not the case. You did after all throw statements of disagreement towards the things I didn't say and aren't true. If that is not wrong accusation I don't know what is. Are you sure you are not the one who misunderstood me?
And what of it?
And what of it?
The only thing I don't understand is why you are so convinced I was trying to prove you wrong and dismiss everything you said, based on the fact that I disagreed with you respectfully? People agree and disagree on things, that's life. What did you not get in my reply when I said... IT WAS NOT MY INTENT TO ACCUSE OR BLAME YOU! Honestly, I'm trying to be civilised here and was trying to subdue this conversation from escalating. You thought I was accusing you, BASED ON YOUR INTERPRETATION OF MY COMMENT. I saw it as just giving my opinion and insight and to gain new knowledge and you saw it as me stating things as facts in a "you're wrong and I'm right" manner. Everything I said, was BASED ON MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES, PERSONAL EXPERIENCES HAVE NO RIGHT AND WRONG, nothing more and nothing less. So essentially, it insulted you because I PERSONALLY believed online relationships aren't true and don't last? THAT I don't understand. I never stated it as fact, you're taking things COMPLETELY out of context. I said, "with a degree of uncertainty". I've read and taken into account all the posts before replying, go back and read all of them on page 1, there is someone there who stats they feel people here are "too polite and nice". OKAY, I WAS NOT REFERRING TO YOU BUT MYSELF! 99% OF THE THINGS I SPOKE OF IN MY POST WERE FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE! You just provided the subject matter. I was disagreeing with you and other posters based on PERSONAL (this is the key word here.) experiences. NOT TO PROVE YOU OR ANYONE ELSE HERE WERE WRONG. Re-reading my post, all I got was some uncertainty, if anything, rather than it being accusational. If anything YOU are the one accusing me of trying to prove you wrong, for whatever reason. If I was taking into account every post in this thread, then my reply extends to not only yourself, but what others have said to. That's just common sense. AGAIN: IT WAS NOT MY INTENT TO ACCUSE OR BLAME YOU! Please read that over and over again, until it enters your cortex.
There, Cren said it and she's not the only one. I do not see there was anybody here who ever SHUNNED "being too nice" and you're right, that's your interpretation. Which is why I'm telling you: you are taking it the wrong way. You needn't interpretted that as aggresive because nobody was attacking your beliefs. You misunderstood us. 'Disagree' is a strong, strong word. It is used in an argument to say whether or not you support someone else's opinion. The thing is, nobody ever said otherwise. Nobody in this thread said that "being genuinely too nice" should be shunned. And I don't see why you had to act very defensively about it. Even more so because you said it as though I said it. covered below:
Secondly, you did not, in your first comment, mention who was it you were talking to. You just wrote a comment in MY THREAD, starting with an opinion about MY POST that you have to disagree with some of the things on MY POST, (which, again, is okay) BUT then you provided points which *I* never said (but you assumed someone else was insinuating). Was it really abnormal and unnatural of me to think you were talking to me and have misunderstood me? Seriously? If so then I apologise but I think it wasn't very appropriate of anybody to state their disagreement about someone's post but then supports the argument with their disagreement they have TOWARDS SOMEONE ELSE'S comment (without clarification to top it off) and then get so surprised when the expected happened. Perhaps you don't realise it, you made it as though I said those things thus leading to me feeling misunderstood and falsely accused. "I can't disagree with some things you said on YOUR thread because I disagree with things you did NOT say (but I feel someone else in the comment did)" That's basically what you wrote.
Lastly, I already made myself clear that nobody has to agree with everything I said. But since you disagreed with me for the things *I* NEVER said, then that's a problem. (yes now I know it was an accident)
"Right and wrong" mentality. Oh goodness. I was saying Hey, there is hope. Hey, true friendship online is possible. Hello I'm a living proof. Hello that can be taken offensively. Because yes that is insulting to pass it off like a fact. I am sorry if you have YET to find that one buddy for you. But if you are so certain it is impossible, maybe you can try "online friendships isn't for me, or is impossible for me" instead. I hope you see the difference.
I understand this is not your intention, nevertheless that is how it came off. A friendly advice: Try to address your comments clearly, as in for whom. Because on one side people can misunderstand, and on the other, you can be misleading too.
Secondly, you did not, in your first comment, mention who was it you were talking to. You just wrote a comment in MY THREAD, starting with an opinion about MY POST that you have to disagree with some of the things on MY POST, (which, again, is okay) BUT then you provided points which *I* never said (but you assumed someone else was insinuating). Was it really abnormal and unnatural of me to think you were talking to me and have misunderstood me? Seriously? If so then I apologise but I think it wasn't very appropriate of anybody to state their disagreement about someone's post but then supports the argument with their disagreement they have TOWARDS SOMEONE ELSE'S comment (without clarification to top it off) and then get so surprised when the expected happened. Perhaps you don't realise it, you made it as though I said those things thus leading to me feeling misunderstood and falsely accused. "I can't disagree with some things you said on YOUR thread because I disagree with things you did NOT say (but I feel someone else in the comment did)" That's basically what you wrote.
Lastly, I already made myself clear that nobody has to agree with everything I said. But since you disagreed with me for the things *I* NEVER said, then that's a problem. (yes now I know it was an accident)
"Right and wrong" mentality. Oh goodness. I was saying Hey, there is hope. Hey, true friendship online is possible. Hello I'm a living proof. Hello that can be taken offensively. Because yes that is insulting to pass it off like a fact. I am sorry if you have YET to find that one buddy for you. But if you are so certain it is impossible, maybe you can try "online friendships isn't for me, or is impossible for me" instead. I hope you see the difference.
I understand this is not your intention, nevertheless that is how it came off. A friendly advice: Try to address your comments clearly, as in for whom. Because on one side people can misunderstand, and on the other, you can be misleading too.
Yes, Cren said it and I explained to her what I meant, maybe we'll have more luck than me and you. Maybe me saying shunned was a MORE GENERALISED viewpoint with regards to society? You bought on a subject of shallow relationships, I extended and branched to other aspects of shallowness. Again, I got the GIST of your message, there was just some aspects I didn't understand, I even ADMITTED it in my reply, that's why I asked some of the questions in my original reply. What exactly is the issue? What is so wrong and offensive about that? So the word "disagree" should be censored now for being "too strong"? Yes, I understand you felt that way. That's why in my original reply to you I stated "IT WAS NOT MY INTENT" (for the fourth time) and "THAT I DIDN'T WANT ANY CONFLICT WHERE THERE WAS NONE." You decided to follow up stating that you were convinced I was accusing you and blaming you. Can you not bring in your own insight and experience to threads anymore? I've NEVER had this problem in my time being here and replying to other people's threads or them replying to me. There have been people who have bought their experiences in my threads before,people who have disagreed, that seemed impertinent... did you not remember yourself replying to MY THREAD branching off about an online relationship (which I never stated myself), in a thread about loneliness as the subject matter? Of course, I assumed it was a PERSONAL experience. Likewise, I disagreed on the surface, as a generalised disagreement based on PERSONAL experience not all disagreements end up with someone being wrong or right. That's called OPINIONS. I truly think you continuing to accuse me of my "insinuations" of your experiences is to retain your ego now, rather than to address the problem at hand.
Let's simplify it: There was a degree of uncertainty for me in some of what you were saying, which I clearly conceded in my replies. BUT, I got the GIST of your post. I was also referring to other posters ON THE SURFACE, AS A GENERALISED PERSONAL account of my experiences. You misinterpreted my intent and thought there were aspects to my post where I was disagreeing WITH YOU, when it was clearly just generalised statements of my OWN experiences. I never treated it as right or wrong, just to give an account of my experiences and to expand on my thoughts. Where did I say you or anyone else in this thread was DIRECTLY wrong or right? Was it when I said "Well you are wrong and that is insulting." "And you're wrong." or was that yourself? I'm still perplexed as to what the issue is. As for your advice:
"I understand this is not your intention, nevertheless that is how it came off. A friendly advice: Try to address your comments clearly, as in for whom. Because on one side people can misunderstand, and on the other, you can be misleading too." I appreciate that advice, but just because one person on here misinterprets what I say and refuses to be reasoned with doesn't mean I'm going to tailor for them alone. Nor do I demand or expect you to tailor your own style to correlate to mine. That's just stupid. There are different types of styles everyone possesses in their writing on here, I like to bring in my own experiences and branch out... I never intend to throw "insinuations" at anyone when I post. So if you're sensitive to my writing, feel free to ignore me. That is my friendly advice to you. Because I'm not changing, as you're the only one I've had problems with this issue so far. And I assume, neither are you. So, I think we're done here, I can see no value in this conversation continuing. I won't respond any longer. Feel free to reply, but I've reached and accepted the resolution that me and you should just agree to disagree about this misunderstanding and I hold no ill will towards you.
Let's simplify it: There was a degree of uncertainty for me in some of what you were saying, which I clearly conceded in my replies. BUT, I got the GIST of your post. I was also referring to other posters ON THE SURFACE, AS A GENERALISED PERSONAL account of my experiences. You misinterpreted my intent and thought there were aspects to my post where I was disagreeing WITH YOU, when it was clearly just generalised statements of my OWN experiences. I never treated it as right or wrong, just to give an account of my experiences and to expand on my thoughts. Where did I say you or anyone else in this thread was DIRECTLY wrong or right? Was it when I said "Well you are wrong and that is insulting." "And you're wrong." or was that yourself? I'm still perplexed as to what the issue is. As for your advice:
"I understand this is not your intention, nevertheless that is how it came off. A friendly advice: Try to address your comments clearly, as in for whom. Because on one side people can misunderstand, and on the other, you can be misleading too." I appreciate that advice, but just because one person on here misinterprets what I say and refuses to be reasoned with doesn't mean I'm going to tailor for them alone. Nor do I demand or expect you to tailor your own style to correlate to mine. That's just stupid. There are different types of styles everyone possesses in their writing on here, I like to bring in my own experiences and branch out... I never intend to throw "insinuations" at anyone when I post. So if you're sensitive to my writing, feel free to ignore me. That is my friendly advice to you. Because I'm not changing, as you're the only one I've had problems with this issue so far. And I assume, neither are you. So, I think we're done here, I can see no value in this conversation continuing. I won't respond any longer. Feel free to reply, but I've reached and accepted the resolution that me and you should just agree to disagree about this misunderstanding and I hold no ill will towards you.
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